The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Questions
Ms Duck:
To use your analogy, without the shadow, harry decided to turn around and run up the down escalator as hard as he can. He may go down, but it will be fighting hard every step.
Paladino:
--- Quote from: DragonEyes on March 19, 2012, 02:05:12 PM ---It's your metaphor. Either way, he didn't even consider it the first time around. That's my point.
--- End quote ---
I understand your point, but I personally belive that the whispering did no push him to accept the WK mantle. I feel like, when there was the whispering, Harry didn't worry much what to do later, he quickly decided to kill himself. But in the second part, he still didn't know what to do later, and this doubt led him to think in other options he didn't before.
Changing subject, assuming the whisper influenced Harry to become WK, wouldn't Mab have a debt to the whisperer?
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on March 19, 2012, 02:12:05 PM ---To use your analogy, without the shadow, harry decided to turn around and run up the down escalator as hard as he can. He may go down, but it will be fighting hard every step.
--- End quote ---
That's my point, he would have to get to the ground anyway. Jumping was the easy way out. The stairs was the hard way. Picking the easy or the hard (that is the choice the whisper affected IMHOP) way wouldn't change the need to get to the ground.
AcornArmy:
The Whisperer caused Harry to lose his last shred of hope. I think maybe it's as simple as that. With his memory gone, that shred of hope was still there, so Harry called Uriel to confirm the status of his injury, and hopefully to get a solution to his problems that didn't involve going to Mab. It was thin, but it was his last possible option before he was left with nothing better than Mab.
I think Uriel actually increased Harry's hope, though, by telling him that if he did it for love, there might be a way back from whatever happened to him as the Winter Knight. So Harry called Mab.
After the Whisperer spoke to him, though, Harry no longer believed he even deserved something better, much less that it was possible. So he went to the Winter Knight option without the hope of being able to redeem himself from what Mab was going to do to him. That made killing himself before Mab could get her hands on him seem like the best option.
-- Actually, now that I think about it, what the Whisperer accomplished was something more tangible than that, something so friggin' obvious that I can't believe it hasn't been thought of already(including by me, until just this moment): the seven words steered Harry away from calling Uriel. I mean... duh, right? With his memory erased, Harry acted as he would have acted without the Whisperer's comment, which was to call Uriel and ask for help. Uriel didn't give him any solid help, but he did give Harry hope. Scratch my original argument-- I think it was correct in way, just not in the way I originally thought. Harry didn't have much hope left, other than Uriel, so he called Uriel, and the archangel gave him hope for his future. Without that, Harry would have moved on to the suicide option.
I think that's it. Put simply, the Whisperer threw Harry off of his natural course of calling Uriel. Which led to him committing suicide, yes, but only as a natural side-effect of being forced to become the Winter Knight, without also having hope for redemption from being the Winter Knight. It wasn't a question of whether or not he would become the WK, though; I think that was always going to happen.
DragonEyes:
--- Quote from: AcornArmy on March 19, 2012, 02:39:31 PM ---The Whisperer caused Harry to lose his last shred of hope. I think maybe it's as simple as that. With his memory gone, that shred of hope was still there, so Harry called Uriel to confirm the status of his injury, and hopefully to get a solution to his problems that didn't involve going to Mab. It was thin, but it was his last possible option before he was left with nothing better than Mab.
I think Uriel actually increased Harry's hope, though, by telling him that if he did it for love, there might be a way back from whatever happened to him as the Winter Knight. So Harry called Mab.
After the Whisperer spoke to him, though, Harry no longer believed he even deserved something better, much less that it was possible. So he went to the Winter Knight option without the hope of being able to redeem himself from what Mab was going to do to him. That made killing himself before Mab could get her hands on him seem like the best option.
-- Actually, now that I think about it, what the Whisperer accomplished was something more tangible than that, something so friggin' obvious that I can't believe it hasn't been thought of already(including by me, until just this moment): the seven words steered Harry away from calling Uriel. I mean... duh, right? With his memory erased, Harry acted as he would have acted without the Whisperer's comment, which was to call Uriel and ask for help. Uriel didn't give him any solid help, but he did give Harry hope. Scratch my original argument-- I think it was correct in way, just not in the way I originally thought. Harry didn't have much hope left, other than Uriel, so he called Uriel, and the archangel gave him hope for his future. Without that, Harry would have moved on to the suicide option.
I think that's it. Put simply, the Whisperer threw Harry off of his natural course of calling Uriel. Which led to him committing suicide, yes, but only as a natural side-effect of being forced to become the Winter Knight, without also having hope for redemption from being the Winter Knight. It wasn't a question of whether or not he would become the WK, though; I think that was always going to happen.
--- End quote ---
See, I'm refering to the route, not the result. The whisper altered his route as well as the result.
AcornArmy:
--- Quote from: DragonEyes on March 19, 2012, 02:43:05 PM ---See, I'm refering to the route, not the result. The whisper altered his route as well as the result.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, but I think the two are not independent. Altering the route caused the change in result, because a route that didn't include a chat with Uriel led straight and only to suicide after becoming the Winter Knight. Uriel was what gave Harry the hope for a future.
The difference in what Harry does first seems odd, if you focus on the Winter Knight thing vs. the suicide thing(it did to me too, until a few minutes ago), because why wouldn't he have tried to call Uriel both times? But if the primary difference in Harry's decision tree was simply that the Whisper made him feel like such a shit that he didn't deserve to call on Uriel, then the rest of what happened falls naturally from that fact. Without Uriel, suicide; with Uriel, no suicide.
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