The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Black Council "Recruitment" [GS Spoilers]
Vairelome:
Regarding Ferrovax, we also don't know what was in the coffer he got as a gift at Bianca's party. Whatever it was should be significant, but we haven't heard anything about it since then. Every other gift at the party was a big deal, even if we don't know all the details concerning exactly how the athame screwed over Winter.
Drulinda:
--- Quote from: Starshine on February 01, 2012, 06:07:46 AM ---It's just a feeling I have about him. Basically because he was at that party - which seemed to be some kind of watershed moment in BC planning [I dont think we know everything that happened in that party yet]. Also because he's a major power - certainly someone powerful enough to be considered BC material. And because he's extremely antagonistic to humans. Considers them something like vermin. Keeping him from assuming his rightful place in the universe. Whatever the ultimate goal of the BC [I think it's destroying the Gates and bringing the Outsiders back], it's not going to be beneficial for mankind.
--- End quote ---
We got a Woj hes a force of nature and somewere that the dragons dont like the way humans took over things or (something like that) so the big questions would be how powerful the black council really are and if someone like ferro would be interested or consider such an alliance beneath him or if he has a mind to take is place back.
toodeep:
--- Quote from: Starshine on February 01, 2012, 06:07:46 AM ---It's just a feeling I have about him. Basically because he was at that party - which seemed to be some kind of watershed moment in BC planning [I dont think we know everything that happened in that party yet]. Also because he's a major power - certainly someone powerful enough to be considered BC material. And because he's extremely antagonistic to humans. Considers them something like vermin. Keeping him from assuming his rightful place in the universe. Whatever the ultimate goal of the BC [I think it's destroying the Gates and bringing the Outsiders back], it's not going to be beneficial for mankind.
--- End quote ---
I thought of that party as the first "open" move of the black council to spread chaos/gain allies. It clearly impacted Lea. Considering that the gifts were coming from the Black Council, I would assume that the recipients were not Black Council members. But of course, this causes some confusion in my thought process about the Black Council. Here are some of my thoughts:
Assumption 1: The meeting/organization that Margaret wanted to start was the big bomb drop by Jim, and was the start of the Black Council. Thus the start of the black council must have included Maggie, Lord Raith, and Arriana; and least originally started for "good" purposes.
Assumption 2: Margaret left the black council and birthed Harry as a child of the stars for the purpose of opposing them
Assumption 3: Cowl is Black Council.
Assumption 4: Justin was either Black Council, or a servant/pawn of the Black Council. My guess is that he was an original member (since he was a peer of Maggie and if she helped start it he would be an obvious person for her to bring in) but may have been sidelined as the powerlevel of the members grew.
Assumption 5: The council now, but maybe not originally, uses and may be corrupted/led by outsiders. A guess is that it may have been the use of outsiders that drove Maggie out of the group.
Assumption 6: The council was giving significant support to the red court (not just as pawns). They did some serious outsider summoning and service with the Red Court and almost succeeded in defeating the white council 2-3 times. Any of those could have succeeded, so I don't consider them patsies.
Problems/Questions
A. If Maggie new all about the black council and wanted them stopped, why didn't she share their plans with people that she could trust? Dad seems like a likely candidate. We know the gem Harry recently acquired carries her knowledge of the ways, I wonder if she may have put some other knowledge in it as well, and he just has to ask the right questions...
B. If Maggie was a founding member and was recruiting, wouldn't Lea be a useful member? We know she and Maggie were tight. If she wasn't a member, wouldn't Maggie have warned her (to help in the protection of her son) enough that Lea would have been smart enough to avoid the situation at Beanca's party (knowing the powers they deal with and that they are up to no good?) I'd kind of been thinking that Lea may be a member, but also made a deal to protect Harry, and thus this puts Lea in a very interesting situation. After all, it may be that a member of the Cabal might be in the best position to protect Harry from the Cabal. Or, because Maggie put her in the know, and she was protecting Harry, she was a being they needed to corrupt/destroy and thus that is why they gave her the poisonous gift.
C. If Lord Wraith was a founding member, wouldn't Lara now know their secrets? She's a lot smarter than Harry in terms of finding every drop of information and every secret that help her hold power. I don't think there is any way after she had the mind lock on her dad that she wouldn't milk every secret out of him. And after what happened in the deeps, she has to know that the black council is after her, so if she knows, she should have shared information about them with Harry by now. So she hasn't signed on with them (or the Malvora plot would never have happened) but she doesn't seem to be working against them- indicating that she doesn't know, which indicates her dad didn't, but that makes no sense.
D. Arianna's involvement vs. the Red King. In changes the king said about her, "Determined to cling to the past, rather than exploring new opportunities..." That does not sound like the desciption of a black council member to me, that sounds more like a black council member (or want-to-be) talking. It makes me doubt who it was the black council was manipulating - arianna or the king?
E. The stories, especially the short stories, have a secondary theme of the older gods/forgotten powers wanting to get back into the limelight. I think that is starting to happen with the move of the Fomor. I think it is possible that that is partly the changing of the order that the black council may have been originally part of accomplishing. Sort of like a Society of Creative Anacronisms taking magical crack. Maggie may have thought that with more of the older powers up and running and dealing with mortals that they would have helped break the stranglehold of the white council and help with encouraging reforms. After all, a lot of the older powers aren't necessarily useful, and they may have believed they could use them. It was only after they took that logic one step too far and started tapping outsiders that Maggie decided to get out. After all, helping to restore the greek pantheon isn't against the laws of magic (And thus isn't mind-twisting), but dealing with outsiders is.
F. Since the black council probably included powerful white court and red court members, it obviously wasn't opposed to vampires and could have included the black court (ie Mavra), but of course, considering that the White Court was behind the fall of the black court, it is unlikely that they would be open to including it in their plans to grab power. Makes an interesting conundrum. It is possible that the black court was specifically excluded, and thus might make the perfect enemy-that-is-an-ally. And since they hate and are watching the white court, they could be clued into much of what they are doing already. I have no idea what the party indicates about this: since Mavra was receiving gifts it seems to indicate she wasn't black council; but her teaching Bianca seems to indicate she was. My really long-shot idea was that Mavra was working to oppose the Black Council by encouraging Bianca to go after Harry (and start the war with the wizards before the Black Council was ready) and the Black Council was trying to bribe her into allying with, rather than opposing the Black Council - either that or it entirely misread her intentions. I think Mavra is very very subtle, and might be a lot more powerful than we know. Her defeats were strategic and allowed. If anything, they have lulled Harry into thinking she is a lot less of a threat than she is, and she is happy that way.
G. Outsiders are corrupting the balck council. The whole big shabang will eventually be about Outsiders, but it will take awhile further to get there.
Gman:
--- Quote from: toodeep on February 01, 2012, 02:41:39 PM ---I thought of that party as the first "open" move of the black council to spread chaos/gain allies. It clearly impacted Lea. Considering that the gifts were coming from the Black Council, I would assume that the recipients were not Black Council members. But of course, this causes some confusion in my thought process about the Black Council. Here are some of my thoughts:
Assumption 1: The meeting/organization that Margaret wanted to start was the big bomb drop by Jim, and was the start of the Black Council. Thus the start of the black council must have included Maggie, Lord Raith, and Arriana; and least originally started for "good" purposes.
Assumption 2: Margaret left the black council and birthed Harry as a child of the stars for the purpose of opposing them
Assumption 3: Cowl is Black Council.
Assumption 4: Justin was either Black Council, or a servant/pawn of the Black Council. My guess is that he was an original member (since he was a peer of Maggie and if she helped start it he would be an obvious person for her to bring in) but may have been sidelined as the powerlevel of the members grew.
Assumption 5: The council now, but maybe not originally, uses and may be corrupted/led by outsiders. A guess is that it may have been the use of outsiders that drove Maggie out of the group.
Assumption 6: The council was giving significant support to the red court (not just as pawns). They did some serious outsider summoning and service with the Red Court and almost succeeded in defeating the white council 2-3 times. Any of those could have succeeded, so I don't consider them patsies.
Problems/Questions
A. If Maggie new all about the black council and wanted them stopped, why didn't she share their plans with people that she could trust? Dad seems like a likely candidate. We know the gem Harry recently acquired carries her knowledge of the ways, I wonder if she may have put some other knowledge in it as well, and he just has to ask the right questions...
B. If Maggie was a founding member and was recruiting, wouldn't Lea be a useful member? We know she and Maggie were tight. If she wasn't a member, wouldn't Maggie have warned her (to help in the protection of her son) enough that Lea would have been smart enough to avoid the situation at Beanca's party (knowing the powers they deal with and that they are up to no good?) I'd kind of been thinking that Lea may be a member, but also made a deal to protect Harry, and thus this puts Lea in a very interesting situation. After all, it may be that a member of the Cabal might be in the best position to protect Harry from the Cabal. Or, because Maggie put her in the know, and she was protecting Harry, she was a being they needed to corrupt/destroy and thus that is why they gave her the poisonous gift.
C. If Lord Wraith was a founding member, wouldn't Lara now know their secrets? She's a lot smarter than Harry in terms of finding every drop of information and every secret that help her hold power. I don't think there is any way after she had the mind lock on her dad that she wouldn't milk every secret out of him. And after what happened in the deeps, she has to know that the black council is after her, so if she knows, she should have shared information about them with Harry by now. So she hasn't signed on with them (or the Malvora plot would never have happened) but she doesn't seem to be working against them- indicating that she doesn't know, which indicates her dad didn't, but that makes no sense.
D. Arianna's involvement vs. the Red King. In changes the king said about her, "Determined to cling to the past, rather than exploring new opportunities..." That does not sound like the desciption of a black council member to me, that sounds more like a black council member (or want-to-be) talking. It makes me doubt who it was the black council was manipulating - arianna or the king?
E. The stories, especially the short stories, have a secondary theme of the older gods/forgotten powers wanting to get back into the limelight. I think that is starting to happen with the move of the Fomor. I think it is possible that that is partly the changing of the order that the black council may have been originally part of accomplishing. Sort of like a Society of Creative Anacronisms taking magical crack. Maggie may have thought that with more of the older powers up and running and dealing with mortals that they would have helped break the stranglehold of the white council and help with encouraging reforms. After all, a lot of the older powers aren't necessarily useful, and they may have believed they could use them. It was only after they took that logic one step too far and started tapping outsiders that Maggie decided to get out. After all, helping to restore the greek pantheon isn't against the laws of magic (And thus isn't mind-twisting), but dealing with outsiders is.
F. Since the black council probably included powerful white court and red court members, it obviously wasn't opposed to vampires and could have included the black court (ie Mavra), but of course, considering that the White Court was behind the fall of the black court, it is unlikely that they would be open to including it in their plans to grab power. Makes an interesting conundrum. It is possible that the black court was specifically excluded, and thus might make the perfect enemy-that-is-an-ally. And since they hate and are watching the white court, they could be clued into much of what they are doing already. I have no idea what the party indicates about this: since Mavra was receiving gifts it seems to indicate she wasn't black council; but her teaching Bianca seems to indicate she was. My really long-shot idea was that Mavra was working to oppose the Black Council by encouraging Bianca to go after Harry (and start the war with the wizards before the Black Council was ready) and the Black Council was trying to bribe her into allying with, rather than opposing the Black Council - either that or it entirely misread her intentions. I think Mavra is very very subtle, and might be a lot more powerful than we know. Her defeats were strategic and allowed. If anything, they have lulled Harry into thinking she is a lot less of a threat than she is, and she is happy that way.
G. Outsiders are corrupting the balck council. The whole big shabang will eventually be about Outsiders, but it will take awhile further to get there.
--- End quote ---
I don't think the Black Council with Ariana or Lord Raith were ever good. Perhaps they were deceiving Maggie and others. I have no idea when the BC was founded but I think Maggie was invited in. I think Ferrovax got a very powerful cursed gift. Lea got the cursed Athame of Morgan LeFay. Ferrovax may want some vengeance on those who did that. Remember Lea talking about her being grateful to Harry for taking out Bianca, Ariana and the whole RC. Ferrovax may be in a similar grateful mood towards Harry if his gift was cursed. As to Lara knowing what Papa Raith knows about the Black Council perhaps she does or doesn't. It depends on how much was left in Papa Raith's head after Lara did the mind whammy on him. The BC did seem to want to take Lara out several times with the Uberghouls and with Madeline etc. I think she is against the BC and is letting Harry to oppose them for her and her giving Harry low key support.
toodeep:
--- Quote from: Gman on February 01, 2012, 05:28:09 PM ---I don't think the Black Council with Ariana or Lord Raith were ever good. Perhaps they were deceiving Maggie and others. I have no idea when the BC was founded but I think Maggie was invited in. I think Ferrovax got a very powerful cursed gift. Lea got the cursed Athame of Morgan LeFay. Ferrovax may want some vengeance on those who did that. Remember Lea talking about her being grateful to Harry for taking out Bianca, Ariana and the whole RC. Ferrovax may be in a similar grateful mood towards Harry if his gift was cursed. As to Lara knowing what Papa Raith knows about the Black Council perhaps she does or doesn't. It depends on how much was left in Papa Raith's head after Lara did the mind whammy on him. The BC did seem to want to take Lara out several times with the Uberghouls and with Madeline etc. I think she is against the BC and is letting Harry to oppose them for her and her giving Harry low key support.
--- End quote ---
Yes, I think it is clear that the monsters in the group aren't actually working for the public weal. I assume they have sold the wizards involved that they were in for the same reason the white court is part of the ventori - to help get rid of competition for their prey, or to make the prey more numerous so they can support more predators. Something self serving that almost sounds "good." Though of course they could be entirely lying. But it is clear that Cowl does not consider himself evil, and is very clear his apprentice doesn't. Obviously very few consider themselves to be evil, but whatever their stated goal is, is what I was refering to as "good." No matter how good the goal, obviously they now feel free to use any means necessary to reach it - which is pretty much textbook evil.
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