The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Why was Molly taken to Arctis Tor?
Starshine:
--- Quote from: sandman1313 on January 25, 2012, 07:49:10 AM ---ok my bad i have not read the original post but but my point is that harry went back in time because he had to not to prevent an explosion in LC although that is a good thing. but if u need a reason for harry to travel back in time say mab needs the knife but knows she cant hold it for long with out going mad so she has harry ,still her knight and therefore not as strictly bound by the laws, travel back in time where harry informs her of the events that r about to happen she then informs the gatekeeper who tells harry about the black magick happening and sets the whole thing off. this explains y mab took molly as well but the main reason for it is that harry already did it and that removes your trouble with time travel the reason cowl doesn't do any of those things is he didn't therefor for him to do so would create a rather large paradox
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This is exactly why I hate time travel stories. It gets too confusing and nothing makes sense.
You're assuming that because - as we read the story - these things are happening - that Harry already did them and therefore they are already 'done' and the timeline 'set'. But that if Cowl were to come back and try to do the same thing - say kill Harry in the alley - it would be changing the timeline because the first time around [as we read the book] - he didnt do it, so coming back and doing it now would mean 'changing' things. If I understand you correct, this is what you are saying?
But just because we dont see a different [earlier] timeline play out doesnt mean it didnt happen. It MUST have happened, or future Harry would have no reason to come back into the past [his past, our present] to change it. So there was an earlier version of the story in that book in which no one came back to stop it and Harry got severely injured in LC explosion. To prevent that from happening - and to change the past - Harry comes back [in OPs post] to prevent LC from ever exploding. It doesnt matter whether he interferes directly [the OP] or tells Mab [in your version] and she does it. The result is the same - it wipes out the old timeline [which we never saw] and substitutes the new one [which is the book we read].
Cowl or someone else could do exactly the same thing. The only difference is we first read the original timeline - Harry gets rescued by Gard. And we get to read about how Cowl changed it so that Harry dies. But both of them are changing the timeline and like I said - where does it stop? It just creates a mess. And if Harry can do it, then why not someone else?
Like I said, I just never read a story where it seemed realistic or believeable to me.
Besides, using Knnn's theory there's no need to resort to time travel devices to make sense of the book.
And as I read your post again it could be - sorry - that Im still misunderstanding your point??
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: Starshine on January 25, 2012, 08:35:35 AM ---This is exactly why I hate time travel stories. It gets too confusing and nothing makes sense.
--- End quote ---
You didn't read the Harry Potter books, did you?
What I'm proposing is that Harry be sent back in time by GK to learn more about the Black Council, nothing else. Of course, then he ends up playing a role that he didn't know he would.
For example, Future GK helps send him back specifically to NOT change the past and only observe the BC shenanigans. And one of the first things he does is accidently bump into PG GK. PG GK realizes he's from the Future, and threatens to punish him for breaking a law. Future Harry manages to convince/prove to PG GK that he traveled with Future GK's help and consent. PG GK lets him go, and as he's departing, Future Harry makes an off-the-cuff comment about giving him a little more detail this time when he warns him about the black magic stuff. PG GK says, "um, I have no idea what you're talking about". And Future Harry says "yeah, you tell me there's dark magic being performed in town, and you have me look into it." To which PG GK says, "First I heard of it." Which confuses Harry, until he begins to realize that he sets that in motion. Which then has him worrying about what else he may have already set in motion the first time, but doesn't know what he has to do this time around. Queue internal dialogue rant about making things difficult for himself.
Thus Harry has to balance not changing anything other than what needs to be changed to match the first time around, while also trying to investigate and learn more about the BC.
--- Quote from: Starshine on January 25, 2012, 08:35:35 AM ---Besides, using Knnn's theory there's no need to resort to time travel devices to make sense of the book.
--- End quote ---
No, time travel isn't needed to make it work. But time travel could be used to explain things in the book that went unexplained which his theory didn't touch on, and could also be the way that Harry finds out about the plot which Knnn spelled out.
ImpishMortal:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on January 25, 2012, 05:10:58 PM ---You didn't read the Harry Potter books, did you?
What I'm proposing is that Harry be sent back in time by GK to learn more about the Black Council, nothing else. Of course, then he ends up playing a role that he didn't know he would.
For example, Future GK helps send him back specifically to NOT change the past and only observe the BC shenanigans. And one of the first things he does is accidently bump into PG GK. PG GK realizes he's from the Future, and threatens to punish him for breaking a law. Future Harry manages to convince/prove to PG GK that he traveled with Future GK's help and consent. PG GK lets him go, and as he's departing, Future Harry makes an off-the-cuff comment about giving him a little more detail this time when he warns him about the black magic stuff. PG GK says, "um, I have no idea what you're talking about". And Future Harry says "yeah, you tell me there's dark magic being performed in town, and you have me look into it." To which PG GK says, "First I heard of it." Which confuses Harry, until he begins to realize that he sets that in motion. Which then has him worrying about what else he may have already set in motion the first time, but doesn't know what he has to do this time around. Queue internal dialogue rant about making things difficult for himself.
Thus Harry has to balance not changing anything other than what needs to be changed to match the first time around, while also trying to investigate and learn more about the BC.
No, time travel isn't needed to make it work. But time travel could be used to explain things in the book that went unexplained which his theory didn't touch on, and could also be the way that Harry finds out about the plot which Knnn spelled out.
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I don't think Harry Potter did it well, but it had way more plot holes and inconsistencies as a series than TDF does. Time travel also introduced critical logic issues into that series. Information and items don't just appear out of nowhere.
(see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrap_paradox)
Besides, who says the bad guys are doing it constantly and that there aren't good guys who have had to travel back to "fix" things themselves? For example, I think the instance in which Harry "was supposed to die" at the hands of Corpsetaker could have originally played out that way, but was altered by someone traveling back and alerting Marcone. Harry would not have been able to do that (in this particular instance), so it strikes me that perhaps there are have been several alterations to the time stream, but that we only see the the altered time and not the original situation that had to be "fixed."
Starshine:
--- Quote from: ImpishMortal on January 25, 2012, 07:39:02 PM ---
so it strikes me that perhaps there are have been several alterations to the time stream, but that we only see the the altered time and not the original situation that had to be "fixed."
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LOL! And see this is why I really dont like time travel stories - because why would the present ever stay the same. Why wouldnt Corpsetaker go back and restore the original timeline by bringing in re-inforcements to deal with Gard?
You could be right and this will happen at some point in the books, but I really hope not because it just doesnt work [for me].
Starshine:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on January 25, 2012, 05:10:58 PM ---You didn't read the Harry Potter books, did you?
What I'm proposing is that Harry be sent back in time by GK to learn more about the Black Council, nothing else. Of course, then he ends up playing a role that he didn't know he would.
For example, Future GK helps send him back specifically to NOT change the past and only observe the BC shenanigans. And one of the first things he does is accidently bump into PG GK. PG GK realizes he's from the Future, and threatens to punish him for breaking a law. Future Harry manages to convince/prove to PG GK that he traveled with Future GK's help and consent. PG GK lets him go, and as he's departing, Future Harry makes an off-the-cuff comment about giving him a little more detail this time when he warns him about the black magic stuff. PG GK says, "um, I have no idea what you're talking about". And Future Harry says "yeah, you tell me there's dark magic being performed in town, and you have me look into it." To which PG GK says, "First I heard of it." Which confuses Harry, until he begins to realize that he sets that in motion. Which then has him worrying about what else he may have already set in motion the first time, but doesn't know what he has to do this time around. Queue internal dialogue rant about making things difficult for himself.
Thus Harry has to balance not changing anything other than what needs to be changed to match the first time around, while also trying to investigate and learn more about the BC.
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Okay, now I see how this is working [and no I didnt read HP - did she do something similiar there?]. I think on superficial reading it works, but once you stop and start to think about it, for me it doesnt. This is a general problem I have with all time travel [at least all that I've read].
What's to stop Future Cowl from going back into the past and whispering to Past Kumori - And thanks for reminding me to bring some back-up for dealing with Dresden in that alley - did they come in handy!
Then what happens - Kumori tells Cowl about what Future Cowl said. Cowl brings his army of zombies or ghouls or maybe a Skinwalker [or something] with him to the alley. They take on Gard and Harry dies in the alley.
--- Quote --- No, time travel isn't needed to make it work. But time travel could be used to explain things in the book that went unexplained which his theory didn't touch on, and could also be the way that Harry finds out about the plot which Knnn spelled out.
--- End quote ---
Generally using time travel to explain something sounds kind of desperate to me - I dont mind using prescience, precognition - whatever you call it - glimpses of the future, intuition about the future. That kind of ties in with the magic theme. But having someone actually travel back in time and interact with it - it just raises all kinds of problems with me. I guess there's a limit to the amount of belief I'm willing to suspend.
But if you have time, Im curious. What problems are you talking about that could be solved with time travel? Im kind of doubtful there couldnt be a simpler, more believable solution.
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