The Dresden Files > DFRPG
Magic and Technology
Samldanach:
It's also been pretty thoroughly established that affecting other living things is harder than affecting non-living things (and, yet, affecting mental states isn't, oddly enough).
Personally, I think it has more to do with the number of moving parts. And, probably, an application of quantum probabilities and chaos theory. I bet that Harry actually would cause a 16th century clock to pop a spring. But, Goretex still works just fine around him, despite being vastly more technologically advanced. The problem becomes magnified when you add active chemical reactions (e.g. internal combustion engines) and electricity, as the scale of the moving parts becomes much smaller. Allowing chaotic interactions to have more of an effect.
It doesn't do much to explain different mages having different tolerances, though.
houndrogerson:
Hi all, first poster here, and what a fun topic to start with.
My two cents is simply this: I am an avid gamer of many tabletop games (Vampire, Mage, Werewolf, D&D, Trinity, and others), and I've found that it's easier to settle all disputes like this one in the role of the Gamemaster.
When this RPG is published, it will be the standard rule set to work with, or from. If, in the end, the rules state that Magic and Technology are mutually exclusive, then you have at least two equal, and opposite outcomes:
1) Rules-lawyers will stick to it tooth-and-nail, with no hesitation. That is the Law laid down by Jim, and the Evil Hat dev team, so mote it be.
2) Non-rules-lawyers will look at it, determine that it puts too much of a limit on the game (if he, or she has other ideas), and choose not to abide by it.
For example (getting a bit off-topic here), I run a Star Wars game and one of my players decides to try to detonate a Black Hole. For me, this is an idea to play with.... and frankly, I'd allow this to happen, saying 'no, that doesn't work' isn't fun to me.
Does it go against all Laws of Physics as we know them? Yeah (so far as I know, at least).
Does it matter that it does? Not in the least.
As long as the game is fun, and everybody is having a good time, do anything you want. If one of your players comes up with an ingenious idea to skirt around the whole Magic/Technology issue in the Dresden novels, I say run with it... But thats just me.
The point of all this dribble is this: Let the books be written, take them for what they are worth. If you use them as an iron fist, then thats your choice to make as GM. If you like to twist some stuff around to tell your story within the world of Harry Dresden, go ahead. It's not like anyone is gonna beat you to death with the game books for going off the beaten path.
Sorry for not really contributing much to the whole issue, but I felt a different look at things was needed.
The Last Bean:
--- Quote ---It's not like anyone is gonna beat you to death with the game books for going off the beaten path.
--- End quote ---
.... Clearly you have never played witha true rules lawyer DM. I have in fact seen a player struck with a DnD book (I believe it was Unearthed Arcana, but I can't remember) but that was more for being an irritating twit than anything else. It was also a blow for democracy. There was a unanimous vote by everyone at the table (via head nods) to use that book rather than the paperback "song and silence" to get his attention.
Oh, right. On topic. Uhm. I think it's worth pointing out that altering living things/mental states doesn't actually seem to be that hard at all in the DresdenVerse. It actually seems to be pretty easy. Necromancy doesn't seem to be that difficult, and that is basically using magical energy to emulate a living body. It has been demonstrated again and again that manipulation of another's mind is both subtle and easy, and a very seductive way to get things done. Also, even people who are essentially non-magic users have been able to complete transformation spells on themselves. (Billy and the Werewolves)
The only reason I don't think we see much transformation or mind manipulation is because they are, in fact, punishable by death. If electricity had been decalred witchcraft and was punishable by stake burning, I think we would have had to wait a lil bit longer for lightbulbs even though they're really a simple concept.
houndrogerson:
--- Quote from: The Last Bean on August 19, 2006, 01:00:55 AM ---
--- Quote ---It's not like anyone is gonna beat you to death with the game books for going off the beaten path.
--- End quote ---
.... Clearly you have never played witha true rules lawyer DM.
--- End quote ---
heh, I used to be one man. It took me 6 years to not be so stifling, that I sucked all the fun out of the game.
Anyway, I agree with you. I just finished reading book 4 again, and I'd have to say that animating dead, building ectoplasmic constructs, or even getting the whole of Graceland Cemetery to start dancing, and playing a mambo looks like it could happen by just getting some spell components wrong.
Star_Controller:
I am intrigued. I hadn't visited this area of the forum much, since I'm not much of an RPG gamer, but the long discussion on tech vs magic is one i've been itching to have/read. I've never really had a good beraing on how it worked in the dresden-verse, but after reading all the posts, this occurs to me:
I really like the idea of the understanding == safe for magic users and tech. Dresden doesn't know circuits, thus a USB drive isn't going to be safe around him dur to unconscious, probability-shifting, mupheyonic field. Once he understands how something works intrinsicly, then his subconscious control mechanisms that are used for his magic screen out things harmful to that tech. as long as the wizard wants to. we have seen at the beginning of death masks how devastating a wizards hex-field can be if a wizard lets it go full bore.
I was bothered by the age of the tech being a direct issue of its susceptility, since harry can short out automatic weapons (grave peril) but we've seen wizards the age of ramirez carry *grenades*.
The understanding angle helps with that issue, though it does seem more direct with the age of the wizards.
This is a bumpy issue. very curious. i would like to see butter's quantify the particle of magic though. That would be amusing. I have faith Butcher will do the issue justice in the books, as he's a sci-fi nerd as well as fantasy. good luck with the rules ironing.
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