Author Topic: Rules for Pets and Allies  (Read 20678 times)

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #60 on: December 30, 2011, 04:02:04 PM »
Wording needs work, but I think I'm onto something here.

Which means that if I'm not, you should shoot me down before I get too enthusiastic.
It's probably too late.   ;)

Seriously though, this seems far too open to abuse as a refresh / power generator.  Even the 'overprotective father with hulking size' is going to show up when things get hairy to pull said child's feet out of the fire. 
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Offline sinker

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #61 on: December 30, 2011, 06:04:28 PM »
Each stunt gives 1-4 refresh. 1 refresh if having a companion with the power is as good as or better than having it yourself. +1 if the power only helps you indirectly. +1 if the companion isn't all that obedient. +1 if the power is for some reason impractical.

So if I use companion to represent my faithful slave with Psychometry, I need to spend a whole stunt on that psychometry. But if I use companion to represent that my overprotective father is a massive dragon, I can get his Titanic Size (Hulking Size x2) for 1 stunt.

I like this Sancta, it deals with the concern that was forming about powers being of variable use to the player, without varying the actual cost of those powers (which was honestly my only idea).

Question:  Does an otherwise pure mortal character who has a Comppanion with powers stop being a pure mortal?

Also a question I had. I can see some cases being mundane (our winged friend), but in some cases the companion having the power is going to be almost equivalent to the PC having it.

Offline benign

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #62 on: December 30, 2011, 10:07:54 PM »
Sanctaphrax, I hope you don't hate me for offering  a possibility for how your rebate idea might work. Please don't let it stop you from putting up your original concept, which will probably be better than mine anyway. I just wanted to put it up for review so that everyone could give some constructive feedback on what they think doesn't work, and maybe jog some imaginations in the right direction.



Companions
Companion stunts grant a player character a dedicated ally, a fully formed character in their own right who has a strong motivation for helping the player out. In addition to purchasing the relevant stunts, a player must choose an aspect on their character sheet that defines the relationship between himself and his companion.

The companion has its own High Concept and two additional aspects, all of which can be compelled by the GM as with any NPC. The player does not gain fate points when his companion is compelled, though he may choose to spend fate points to resist those compels or to invoke the companion's aspects for effect or declarations. The companion may not have or spend fate points itself under any circumstances.

Companions are NPCs and ultimately they are under the control of the GM. But they are assumed to be completely loyal to the player who purchased them, and so barring compels they should obey all reasonable orders or requests.

If controlling a companion becomes burdensome for you as a GM, we encourage you to hand over control of the companion to the player who purchased it. But be aware that in the hands of a clever player this can create a significant increase in power.

Stunts
Trusty Ally: You are accompanied through life's travails by a devoted ally. The relationship between the two of you might be personal, professional, mystical, or anything else, but come hell or high water, you are in it together. Choose one skill thematically appropriate for the type of companion you desire, for example Survival for a pet, Resources for an employee, Lore for a supernatural familiar, Contacts for a devoted old friend, etc. This stunt now applies to that skill.

Your ally has no refresh to spend on powers and stunts, but has a skill pyramid whose apex is one below the level of the skill you used for this stunt.

Partner: (Requires Trusty Ally.) You're not interested in a sidekick so much as a partner, someone who can keep up when the going gets rough. The companion you gained with the Trusty Ally stunt is granted 1 refresh to spend on stunts and powers, as appropriate to their High Concept. You may purchase this stunt again, each time granting your companion 1 more refresh. Unspent refresh does not allow the companion to possess or spend fate points.

This refresh give the companion more scope to interact with the campaign, making them useful in a broader array of situations than an unimproved ally. Your GM has the final say in determining how powerful you can make a partner before it becomes inappropriate for the campaign.

More than Competent: (Requires Trusty Ally.) Good help can be so hard to find – but you seemed to have lucked out. Your companion is broadly competent across a variety of skills, making her an indispensable asset in almost any situation you encounter. Increase the level of your companion's skill pyramid by 1. You may purchase this stunt again, each time increasing the height of the pyramid by 1.

These skills give the companion more scope to interact with the campaign, making them useful in a broader array of situations than an unimproved ally. Your GM has the final say in determining how powerful you can make a companion before it becomes inappropriate for the campaign.

Quirks
Not all companions are made equal. Some are single-mindedly devoted to the player, others are not quite. Some don't see themselves as companions to the player character at all, and might have their own ideas about who is subordinate to whom.

Quirks are ways to refund an amount of refresh spent on companion stunts. You may choose a number of Quirks equal to the number of Companion stunts you have minus one. Each quirk you chose refunds you 1 refresh, in essence canceling out the cost of one companion stunt.

Unreliable: While you can count on most companions to be available whenever you need them, yours is a lot more mercurial. Whether it's because of other commitments, or because they are just plain ornery, a lot of the time they just won't be available to help out. Change one of the companion's aspects to reflect what makes it so unreliable. It should be common enough to come up at least once a session. When the GM compels that aspect, making your companion unavailable, you are not eligible for a fate point.

Out of Control: Some part of your companion's nature makes them difficult to control in exactly the situations that you most need their help. Change one of the companion's aspects to reflect what makes it so uncontrollable. For example, an animal may respond poorly to commands during stressful situations, or an overbearing, overprotective father may “know what's best”. In most situations your companion tends to follow your wishes. In really important conflicts, however, their nature gets the best of them and they get carried away, introducing further challenges to the player who they are supposedly assisting.

Focused: This ally tends to be useful in one or a small group of related situations, but not in others. For example a secretary ally would be good at doing research and deflecting unwanted social attention, but would be of less use in a fight. Choose a focused role for them and keep it in mind when designing their skills and aspects. Whenever the ally is called upon to aid in a situation outside their expertise, they become timid or unwilling. At best they manage to stay out of trouble in such cases, at worst they become distractions or, through their inexperience, make things worse.


Companions, Compels, and Quirks: A basic companion should be available to the player who purchased it more or less all the time. While the GM does have control of it and may compel it's aspects at will, those compels should have more to do with guiding the companion's behavior within a scene than preventing them from being useful. The player did spend the refresh, after all, and should be able to benefit as consistently as they do from any other purchase.

There will be situations where it just doesn't make sense for a companion to contribute, or even to be present. If something prevents a companion from contributing at all to a scene, it is likely worth a compel against the aspect the player took defining his relationship with his companion, and thus a fate point. Keep in mind the guidelines for weak compels (YS 104) when making this decision.

If a companion is unavailable or unwilling because of a Quirk, it is never worth a fate point.



Credit where credit is due: This set of stunts is a result of many minds coming together, and is not my own invention. Special thanks to Sanctaphrax, whose ideas I used for the quirk system, and whose writing I quote from verbatim here and there. It is also by no means meant to be a final system, so please rip it to shreds and lets build something that does work.

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #63 on: December 31, 2011, 01:40:40 AM »
It's probably too late.   ;)

Seriously though, this seems far too open to abuse as a refresh / power generator.  Even the 'overprotective father with hulking size' is going to show up when things get hairy to pull said child's feet out of the fire.

I wholeheartedly agree.  However, I think magic as a whole is made to be abused.  Stacking stunts and homebrew stunts are often OP.  IoP often lead to abuse.  Ultimately, this is just another option to abuse refresh in an already unbalanced system.

(click to show/hide)

I see no reason not to stat out a few ways to stretch the system to make a character concept work.  Afterall the GM/table as a whole should police it's own munchkins. 

Sounds odd coming from the guy who hates "broken" powers eh?  I'll concede that point.  I just think there has to be a way to make followers balanced in some fashion.  We may never come to a consensus on the matter, but I see little reason not to try balancing it or debating it.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #64 on: December 31, 2011, 05:04:03 AM »
@UmbraLux:

It's not too late yet. But it'll take more than two sentences to convince me.

I think we agree that having a companion have a power is often less valuable than having that power yourself. Which means that buying a power for your companion should often cost less than buying it for yourself.

(Assuming that we are in agreement so far...)

The question is, how much less? It seems that you think I've gone too far with the discounts. Would be interested in hearing how and why.

@Silverblaze:

If everything is equally broken, then the game is balanced.

Is that what you're saying?  Because if so, then we totally agree.

@SunlessNick:

I don't like the idea of refunding companions for having narrow areas of competence. Basic optimization already promotes building companions who are highly skilled in one area. We don't need to promote that further.

A mortal human with a non-human or non-mortal companion is still a pure mortal. If this isn't balanced, then the companion stunts are more powerful than stunts should be.

@sinker:

Thanks. That was the idea, glad to hear that someone thinks I accomplished it.

@benign:

I'm not so petty as to hate people for helping me, don't worry.

Not a huge fan of your rewrite, though.

I agree that we should have something similar to Quirks, but I'd rather not have them be individually named and stackable. Would rather have one option, with an effect along the lines of: "For whatever reason, the companion is not assumed to be perfectly obedient. One of its aspects defines its agenda or personality, which it will pursue or act out even against the player's commands. This is not a compel." (I included something like this in my suggestion for companion powers, but I see no reason that it shouldn't apply to mortals too.)

Also, 1 refresh for Batman > 1 refresh for Alfred.

And we need a cap on pyramid raisers for allies, lest absurdity ensue.

Finally, I don't think it's possible to avoid some level of equivalence-drawing between stunts and powers. As long as both can be upgraded with stunts equivalency will exist. And given that a character with Epic skill can take as a base stunt a 0-refresh character that can mow down RCVs, why should characters with powers always require multiple stunts?

PS: I'm actually much more worried about the balance of skills than I am about the balance of Powers, for what it's worth.
PPS: Should we make it possible to buy a whole team of minions with one stunt chain?

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #65 on: December 31, 2011, 06:21:57 AM »
@UmbraLux:

It's not too late yet. But it'll take more than two sentences to convince me.

I think we agree that having a companion have a power is often less valuable than having that power yourself. Which means that buying a power for your companion should often cost less than buying it for yourself.

(Assuming that we are in agreement so far...)

The question is, how much less? It seems that you think I've gone too far with the discounts. Would be interested in hearing how and why.
There is no functional difference between a power character X has and the same power on character Y when both are at a given player's disposal.  So no, I'm not entirely certain we agree on whether or not powers should cost lest for a companion.

I do think companions should get a rebate based on availability / obedience.  But not for each stunt / power. 

Something like giving benign's Quirks positive refresh but paying full price otherwise (for abilities/powers/stunts applicable to the PC).
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #66 on: December 31, 2011, 07:46:48 AM »
With some powers there's a major difference. Inhuman Strength, for example.

If I have Inhuman Strength, then my attacks do 2 extra stress.

If my companion has Inhuman Strength, then my companion's attacks do 2 extra stress.

The former is better than the latter, because my attacks are almost certainly stronger, more frequent, and tactically more important than my companion's.

What you say is true for some powers, though.


Offline Tedronai

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #67 on: December 31, 2011, 02:14:10 PM »
With some powers there's a major difference. Inhuman Strength, for example.

If I have Inhuman Strength, then my attacks do 2 extra stress.

If my companion has Inhuman Strength, then my companion's attacks do 2 extra stress.

The former is better than the latter, because my attacks are almost certainly stronger, more frequent, and tactically more important than my companion's.

What you say is true for some powers, though.

The difference is even more pronounced with Toughness powers.
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #68 on: December 31, 2011, 04:25:32 PM »
With some powers there's a major difference.
Sure, as I've stated previously, I think you pay for what a power gets you and not for every power a companion may have.  Wings on a sparrow, for example - they don't really give much to the PC at all.

That said, both strength and toughness powers do.  At least they do if the companion fights along side the PC.  I'd even argue those are worth more on the companion than on the PC.  Strength plus an extra action* is a second attack and more damage.  Toughness is tanking...and with an entirely new set of stress and consequences.  Both end up more useful than the same power on the PC.

*Assuming you're still going towards the model of companion as a discrete character.
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Offline SunlessNick

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #69 on: December 31, 2011, 06:40:08 PM »
Quote
I don't like the idea of refunding companions for having narrow areas of competence.  -  Sanctaphrax
I didn't mention the breadth of their competence, but whether they can routinely take part specifically in conflicts.  Ie, can it fight for you, or the social (and perhaps mental) equivalent thereof, or is it, or are its actions limited to those normally taking place outside of "action scenes."  Taking Alfred as an example again, he is good at tons of stuff and absolutely loyal, but he's not someone Bruce Wayne can typically send into combat or to talk the authorities into following a partiuclar course of action (though an FP spend can let him sucker punch a League of Shadows mook).  That's a different question, and one that I do think it worth considering in the price.

Offline benign

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #70 on: December 31, 2011, 07:29:10 PM »
Ok, I like the feedback I'm getting on my writeup but I want to let that marinate for a while before I come back to discuss it. I'd also love to hear from a few more people if anyone is interested.

On a completely different note, how many consequences should a companion even have access to? Since consequences are by and large a metagame player resource to impact the narrative and not a character one (much like fate points), I could actually see an argument for having stress inflicted on a companion take up consequence slots on the player character's sheet! Then again you get things like recovery powers, which are definitely qualities of the character but which interact with consequences, so it's not entirely cut-and-dried.

If we do elect to give companions their own consequences, should they be able to take extreme consequences? I don't think so, as those are generally restricted to PC-level characters. Severe? Should they be limited to moderate?

Offline benign

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #71 on: December 31, 2011, 07:35:26 PM »
Also, I'm beginning to relax with regards to drawing an equivalence between refresh and skill points. Mostly because I think we can't avoid doing it to some extent, though my discomfort with the concept remains. Now I oppose giving refresh to a one stunt companion on balance grounds alone, I think it's simply too good as currently written.

Offline Aminar

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #72 on: December 31, 2011, 07:41:48 PM »
I've been messing around with adapting something from my own writing as a summoner.

The required powers for it, as I have them now are:
Channeling-Summoning Control
Ritual-Summoning and Binding
Demense(I have this as a requirement for a location to store summons.)

The character can pull anything from his demense by opening a gateway to the Nevernever, but can only open gateways to that demense, which is essentially attached to his mind/Soul and formed by his psyche.(Part of the high concept aspect.)
From there to get his summoned creatures to do anything he has to channel a spell with difficulty equal to the creatures conviction(which is augmented by the risk to itself, how much it likes me, etc.(Basically the creatures aspects)) and give it a command.  It will fulfill that command and then do as it sees fit.  In addition every summon is specifically made with the DM.  I figure that keeps things pretty balanced as long as the player and DM work together.   As far as refresh goes, I doubt any one creature will be above my own, and my character has burned quite a bit of refresh for somebody with literally no powers giving himself offensive or defensive capabilities of his own.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #73 on: January 01, 2012, 12:11:01 AM »
@UmbraLux: You were getting that "extra action" anyway and that "extra set of stress and consequences" anyway. The enhancement of an action or trait that you have partial control over, like the attacks of your allies, is worth less than the enhancement of your own actions or traits.

At least, I think so. What I want to know is, why do you think otherwise?

@SunlessNick: But if I give Alfred no combat skills, he isn't going to fight anyway. So why should I get rewarded for making him unable to do what he didn't have the skills to do in the first place?

@benign: Think you could come up with an example of how a 1-stunt companion with refresh would be unbalanced in comparison to one with just skills using the system I proposed? I'd be interested to see that.

I was thinking that companion consequences would be up to the GM, and that they would rarely go above mild. But your idea sounds interesting too.

@Aminar: This isn't really the place for summoning rules discussion. I suggest you make a new thread. Also I suggest you look at this because I'm pretty proud of it.

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #74 on: January 01, 2012, 12:38:36 AM »
@benign:  I'd suggest buying consequences.  Maybe a minor per refresh?  That may be too expensive...guess it depends how combat effective you want companions to be.

@UmbraLux: You were getting that "extra action" anyway and that "extra set of stress and consequences" anyway.
"I'm" not getting those...I'll be re-skinning IoP rules for companions in the game I play.   ;)  Interestingly, they cover much of what you've discussed - though certainly not all.  Thing is, I still see the second action and extra consequences as problematic, do I don't mind doing without those.

Quote
The enhancement of an action or trait that you have partial control over, like the attacks of your allies, is worth less than the enhancement of your own actions or traits.

At least, I think so. What I want to know is, why do you think otherwise?
Look at it from a big picture point of view.  I have two choices: 1) spend refresh on increasing my attack; and 2) spend refresh to get a second action which may be an attack.  The second action will almost always be more efficient & powerful.
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