McAnally's (The Community Pub) > Author Craft
Given Penny's post, here is another pet peeve of mine...
meg_evonne:
--- Quote from: Gruud on December 05, 2011, 03:17:13 AM ---The only time I find myself using the word "seem" or its equivalent is when I'm in one character's POV, trying to describe (whether showing or telling) the actions of another character.
What's their motivation, why are the doing or saying what they do?
The currently occupied chaarcter can't really know, but by observation of body language, tone of voice etc they can make an educated guess.
So, the other person my "seem to reconsider" or may "seem to be preoccupied by their recollections", because the POV'er can't really know for sure.
Is that what you mean, or is it something else entirely?
--- End quote ---
Yes, you've got my point and the example you use is great, because that is exactly the challenge of writing without the 'seem' modifier. It is especially difficult in this very situation.
--- Quote from: Aminar on December 05, 2011, 04:42:51 PM ---I would think it should only be used when describing something the character isn't sure is there.
Take this bit from very early in my story. A bit description heavy, but its meant to add a bit more suspense to the first encounter...
"A few moments later a five foot tall, twenty foot long, bipedal, feathered reptile clicked into view at the T-junction in the tunnels to Keth’s left. Its black scales and feathers seemed to glimmer with hidden turquoise and red-gold highlights as it turned its serpentine neck toward Keth."
--- End quote ---
This is an excellent choice to discuss, especially since it is in the beginning of your story where you are desperately wanting to grab that reader's attention. In your point of view, which is 3rd from a narrator's viewpoint, there isn't a seemed. It either glimmers or it doesn't. The point of view might be wrong in the observation, but to the narrator it glimmers. At least in my opinion, using 'seemed' steps your reader away from the action, whereas not using it places the reader in the narrator's shoes with more intimacy. Think of reporting the glimpse of a hummingbird's irridescent ruby throat and colors--it does glimmer. Yes, it doesn't in reality glimmer with its own energy, but from a practical standpoint--it does glimmer. I don't think you would say, "The hummingbird seems to glimmer." unless you were writing scientific non-fiction. In a short story, you would say, "It glimmered." And you would do this because you want the glimmer to mean something to the reader.
*sighing* because I know I'm not explaining this right... But to me as an editor, the difference in intimacy with the reader is worlds different and far more satisfying without the 'seem' modifier.
--- Quote from: LizW65 on December 06, 2011, 02:21:35 PM ---"Roger figeted and drummed his fingers on the table."
Both convey basically the same message, but the second one uses actions to describe Roger's state of mind, and is therefore considered "stronger" writing. I could be dead wrong, though--Meg?
(And I agree, if you need to convey a character's uncertainty, you need less-than-definite terminology to do so, so "seems" should be okay in that instance.)
--- End quote ---
Dead on example Liz. Yet, I would argue that conveying a character's uncertainty is definitely not a place for 'seem' modifier. Consider it a matter of trust in your reader and it doesn't have to be long. Look at Liz' example 8 words to replace 3. You gain invaluable engagement with the reader. You are asking the reader to step up to the plate and make the leap to the character's uncertainty. The 'seem' modifer is a cheat in my humble opinion, while Liz' example is a writer earning his/her keep and doing it right.
I'm willing to bet that more than one agent does a simple word search for seem and if they find a lot? Reject letter.
Rob, I've read some of your work and, like Shecky said, rules are made to be broken. I trust your writing! In this case, the narrator is still making mental decisions. It might be effective to have those non-concrete contradictory assumptions rolling one off the other in rapid recession. I'd love that wild ride! Yes, it would drive me crazy, but also extremely sympathetic to the character, whereas too many of those seems for several pages would make me mad at the author? Does that make sense? I'd consider it an honor to share that ride with the character, but irritating to be held off by the narrator. I mean the narrator is having to act and respond on what he thinks each statement is or action that happens.
*sigh* again, I'm not expressing this well. Let me just say, that I would absolutely love to read this work and get lost in translation hand in hand with the characters, but if it were several pages of 'seems' where I was observing instead, then I might walk away from it?
To be honest Rob, the seem would be okay, even good, but can you imagine the awesome impact on the reader the other way? Freaking award level maybe...
BUT it is the author's choice and rules are made to be broken. I kinda trust you on that Rob... :-)
Gruud:
--- Quote from: Shecky on December 06, 2011, 07:42:52 PM ---... sometimes shorthanding a description advances the action more satisfactorily than "showing" would do.
There's a delicate balance in all of this; coming down firmly on one side would do a disservice to the process.
--- End quote ---
And I think this is where I wil have to make my distinctions during the edit phase.
The work is fairly action oriented, especially in some spots, making me lean a bit more toward telling at those points so as to keep the action flowing.
But I will still need to make a conscious effort to search throughout for my usage of "seems" (and any synonyms) so I can do a better job of spotting the places where an "8 words for 3" swap would very much benefit the reader's experience.
Making the transition from a more omni type of style to one that's much more third person oriented has been something I've struggled with a bit, and one of the keys to helping me do that has been to try and be more cognizant of the limitations the current POV character has as it relates to what any other character can hear, smell, see, feel, etc.
So I've no doubt got "seems" and "appears" all over the place especially in the earlier chapters. ;D
RobJN:
--- Quote from: meg_evonne on December 07, 2011, 05:38:01 PM ---
Rob, I've read some of your work and, like Shecky said, rules are made to be broken. I trust your writing! In this case, the narrator is still making mental decisions. It might be effective to have those non-concrete contradictory assumptions rolling one off the other in rapid recession. I'd love that wild ride! Yes, it would drive me crazy, but also extremely sympathetic to the character, whereas too many of those seems for several pages would make me mad at the author? Does that make sense? I'd consider it an honor to share that ride with the character, but irritating to be held off by the narrator. I mean the narrator is having to act and respond on what he thinks each statement is or action that happens.
*sigh* again, I'm not expressing this well. Let me just say, that I would absolutely love to read this work and get lost in translation hand in hand with the characters, but if it were several pages of 'seems' where I was observing instead, then I might walk away from it?
To be honest Rob, the seem would be okay, even good, but can you imagine the awesome impact on the reader the other way? Freaking award level maybe...
BUT it is the author's choice and rules are made to be broken. I kinda trust you on that Rob... :-)
--- End quote ---
Looking through the statistics for the manuscript, the narrator "seems" (seemed, seeming, etc) a lot more than I'd thought. About 254 times in what would be 568 paperback pages. :o The narrator, I think, needs to do more straight observing/reporting and leave the interpretation to the readers. There is definitely room for the "eight words for three" trick in a lot of places in the narrative, as well.
Having more than one character around to guess at the meaning(s) across the language barrier means we don't have to rely solely on the narrator's guesswork. Now that I've written that, I need to remember to use that device more often.
Aminar:
--- Quote ---This is an excellent choice to discuss, especially since it is in the beginning of your story where you are desperately wanting to grab that reader's attention. In your point of view, which is 3rd from a narrator's viewpoint, there isn't a seemed. It either glimmers or it doesn't. The point of view might be wrong in the observation, but to the narrator it glimmers. At least in my opinion, using 'seemed' steps your reader away from the action, whereas not using it places the reader in the narrator's shoes with more intimacy. Think of reporting the glimpse of a hummingbird's irridescent ruby throat and colors--it does glimmer. Yes, it doesn't in reality glimmer with its own energy, but from a practical standpoint--it does glimmer. I don't think you would say, "The hummingbird seems to glimmer." unless you were writing scientific non-fiction. In a short story, you would say, "It glimmered." And you would do this because you want the glimmer to mean something to the reader.
*sighing* because I know I'm not explaining this right... But to me as an editor, the difference in intimacy with the reader is worlds different and far more satisfying without the 'seem' modifier.
--- End quote ---
I don't mean to hijack the thread but I'm still a bit of a newbie at this writing shindig and love good advice.
Now, functionally the thing does glimmer.(Long story short, it's from another plane of existence intrinsically connected to dusk(sort of).) The seems is supposed to convey the evanescent nature of that glimmer, but I can't find words to describe that concretely without awkward narration and adding even more description where I feel I'm at the cap of how much I can describe the thing without cutting away interest too much...
meg_evonne:
Sometimes Aminar you have to slop it down on the page. It's first draft anyway, right? You'll use the info later maybe, and you might find a miracle way of describing it as you slog through the details. I'm sure that there are writers who don't have to do that; I not one of them... :-)
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version