Focused Practitioners- What are their Limits?

[Becq]

On the top of YS255, it reads: "Subtlety with fire is rare, but those who can combine the two take advantage of its purifying properties."

I would combine this with the lower sidebar on YS179 to say "Yes, it's possible for some pyromancers who specialize in the more subtle side of Fire to do some of the things you suggest.  However, to reflect this specialization, you will need to take an aspect that reflects your subtle nature (much like Molly did) and keep in mind that that same subtlety will hamper your efforts to perform non-subtle Fire effects".

As for things like 'heat transfer', I would assume that Fire has a strong tendency toward extremes unless specialized as above.  So you could yank the heat out of water, leaving behind ice (Dresden did this), but the most likely way to comfortably warm up a friend would be to use Fire to light a ... well, a fire.

Hm.  I think I basically agree with Haru.

[Malraza]

For most of the books, Harry can't pull of a decent veil to save his own ass.  That still doesn't mean that spirit evocations are incapable of creating veils, which is a question more comparable to the content of this debate.

He also doesn't use air to move things around, even though that's one of it's strong suits. That's not how his training has air working for him, not how he conceptualizes it. He uses spirit. Further, where veils are something that Harry is just not good at, he has specifically that healing is extremely difficult and delicate. Even Elaine, who is quite a bit better at delicate magic than Harry, can only heal minor injuries and that's with a ritual/thamaturgy application, not evocation.

Devonapple, I really like the black box description.

With the Aspect discussion, where do you draw the line though between someone not being able to generate an effect though and simply something that you're a lot better at because you have an Aspect that you can Invoke? I can definitely see the benefits of requiring an Aspect, and having one would definitely help solve a debate on it. On the other hand it also seems like something that with a character with thought about heritage for your spellcasting framework would really not need an Aspect.

[sinker]

He also doesn't use air to move things around, even though that's one of it's strong suits. That's not how his training has air working for him, not how he conceptualizes it. He uses spirit.

I believe that's what Ventas Servitas is. It's an air spell that moves things around...

Anyway nitpicks aside we've been looking at the thematic side of this. Why don't we look at the mechanical?

Mechanically the only reason why an element matters is in thaumaturgy, evocation maneuvers, and evocation blocks. An attack is an attack is an attack. All attacks deal physical stress and there's really no difference how it's done (Ok, for catches it does matter, but that's an edge case).

Thaumaturgy and evocation maneuvers are actually mechanically set up for this kind of twisting the elements. Since the GM determines the complexity/shift requirement for each of these things you can actually increase the difficulty if you feel that they are doing something that's a little out of their baliwick. Using fire to make ice? Double the shift requirement (or increase it as you feel is best).

Blocks are the one thing where you really need to allow the thematics to guide the mechanics. This is the part where you just have to use your common sense and decide what works and what doesn't. A wall of fire to prevent attacks? Might work on melee, but obviously people can shoot through it. Bleeding energy off as heat? Will work against most ranged attacks, but in melee (where the energy is sustained) it's not going to be effective.

[Pbartender]

I believe that's what Ventas Servitas is, an air spell that moves things around...

Yeah, Ventas Servitas is just bad Latin for "wind, enslaved" or "wind that is my servant".

[PolaroidNinja]

My group had a conversation about this topic a while back, it came to our attention that Focused Practitioners are darn near as powerful as full blown Evokers and Wizards. This is due to them being able to do most everything with just a single element, save a few very specific exceptions. Of course that's before you factor in the refinements and such.

After a while arguing about it, we came to this conclusion: Focused practitioners limits are set exactly were it stops being interesting in the narration or fun to allow them to 'go there'.

So, would I let a pyromancer "heal" his friend with his Ritual ability? Sure would, as long as the narrative is evocative and interesting. Then, depending on the description of that healing it might have some lingering effects

Would I let a Geomancer fling fireballs? No. That's just silly. Plus it doesn't uphold his general theme, and it's no fun for anyone (except maybe the geomancer) when we break verisimilitude for something like that. Then again, if he can give me a really good explanation, like pulling natural gas up (after making a declaration) and then using his magic to "rub" the earth around the gas vent hoping for a spark... but that's not really flinging fireballs so...

On a side note, I think most magical elements could have the right justification for starting particular types of minor consequences into recovery, something I hadn't thought about till this thread.

[Katarn]

Wow. great feedback everyone, didn't expect so much input

@EdgeofDreams- we hadn't specified yet if he was using Channeling/Ritual (this game JUST started), but I'll be sure to draw on Channeling's restrictions.  He isn't sponsored (presently).

@Wyvern- good idea, this is especially relevant since he's self-taught more or less.  (see Malraza about the phoenix)

@Pbartender- perhaps, depends on how he rationalizes it.

@Malraza-  I figure he'll use healing in the generic sense, not complicated.  I'll put some inherent limitation (such as Scholarship/Lore rolls) to make it more plausible.
Also, I know this guy will want to be very.... creative and liberal with his powers, so a phoenix is a good idea for a sponsor.  I may add that at a milestone.

@ARedThorn- Yea, he's quite verbose, I'll have to use the cost/limitations/ loss of energy to extreme cases.

@RevengeOfTim & Tedronai- yea, I'm leaning towards easing of pain and only healing involving heat normally.  We know healing is obscure, to the point that wizards usually specialize or are known for their abilities.

@devonapple- absolutely.  Ritual will be the way to go.  Also, he does a good job with justifications (he's not one to black box.)

@UmbraLux- fate points could be used, depending if he has a good aspect for it.

@Haru- haven't decided how precise I'm gonna make aspect-usage.  I might rely on rolls to see how precise of magic he can do.

@Becq- Again, I'll probably see if he has subtlety as an aspect.  I hadn't thought about the extreme concept, I'll keep it in mind.

@sinker- Good point on defense.  Context is all-crucial (and justification).

@PolaroidNinja- I want the game to be fun, so if he can make legitimate jumps I'll probably let him do it (with unforeseen consequences).


Thanks, again, all of posting.  Feel free to keep debating/contributing/being awesome.

[UmbraLux]

@UmbraLux- fate points could be used, depending if he has a good aspect for it.

Not sure I was clear enough...my point is the elements themselves are aspects.  If he's a Fire channeler / ritualist, the "It's Fire" aspect can be compelled or invoked when appropriate.  Any other aspects he may have are extraneous.

Taking the healing edge case as an example, if he's trying to heal a wound I might offer a fate point and say "It's fire, you find that extremely difficult..."  If he doesn't pay a fate point he can't heal wounds using fire magic.

[tetrasodium]

"healing" is pretty vague, can you give more info on what he was trying to do, & how he was trying to justify it?

[Belial666]

Magic is the power of life and creation. It has no limitations whatsoever. The only limitations exist in the understanding, control and power of the wielder.

Now, as to healing with fire, I see at least four ways it can be done via ritual;

1) As most chemists will tell you, chemical -and by extension biological- reactions increase pace geometrically with the increase of temperature and thus offered energy. So you render his body magically invulnerable to any actual damage by fire, while you simultaneously increase his temperature by, say, sixty degrees. That results in a speed-up of his biological functions of about 30x without him being fried into a crisp (since the magic prevents that damage). A day's of healing and recovery in under an hour. A month's of healing and recovery within a day. You're just providing the energy required and making the organism capable of actually working at those extreme speeds without burning out.

2) Selectively destroy diseases, viruses and damaged cells while regulating the victim's temperature for maximum recovery speed and shocking the nerves into feeling no pain / relaxing the muscles and sealing wounds by freezing the blood flow (and only the blood flow) out of them while keeping the surrounding area warm. This is more natural but actually more complicated than #1 in terms of how fine control and how much medical knowledge it requires.

3) Summon a Summer Fae. They're creatures of fire so you can do it. Then bind it into healing the guy for you.

4) As per #3, except you bind other types of fire-related entities, such as a spirit of fire and cleansing.

5) Worldwalk the guy into a fire-related part of the Nevernever where the natural conditions promote healing, or pull in part of those conditions into the physical world. Several places in Summer should have natural conditions that promote life, regrowth and renewal.

[Katarn]

Not sure I was clear enough...my point is the elements themselves are aspects.  If he's a Fire channeler / ritualist, the "It's Fire" aspect can be compelled or invoked when appropriate.  Any other aspects he may have are extraneous.

Taking the healing edge case as an example, if he's trying to heal a wound I might offer a fate point and say "It's fire, you find that extremely difficult..."  If he doesn't pay a fate point he can't heal wounds using fire magic.

Fair enough- I'll definitely being using Fate Points depending on what he's trying to do.

"healing" is pretty vague, can you give more info on what he was trying to do, & how he was trying to justify it?

This was more of a general discussion, so we didn't get into specifics.  Obviously I'm not going to let him heal broken bones with it, more likely just use it as heat therapy is normally used in medicine, unless he pays relevant FP and can justify it.

Magic is the power of life and creation. It has no limitations whatsoever. The only limitations exist in the understanding, control and power of the wielder.

Now, as to healing with fire, I see at least four ways it can be done via ritual;

1) As most chemists will tell you, chemical -and by extension biological- reactions increase pace geometrically with the increase of temperature and thus offered energy. So you render his body magically invulnerable to any actual damage by fire, while you simultaneously increase his temperature by, say, sixty degrees. That results in a speed-up of his biological functions of about 30x without him being fried into a crisp (since the magic prevents that damage). A day's of healing and recovery in under an hour. A month's of healing and recovery within a day. You're just providing the energy required and making the organism capable of actually working at those extreme speeds without burning out.

2) Selectively destroy diseases, viruses and damaged cells while regulating the victim's temperature for maximum recovery speed and shocking the nerves into feeling no pain / relaxing the muscles and sealing wounds by freezing the blood flow (and only the blood flow) out of them while keeping the surrounding area warm. This is more natural but actually more complicated than #1 in terms of how fine control and how much medical knowledge it requires.

3) Summon a Summer Fae. They're creatures of fire so you can do it. Then bind it into healing the guy for you.

4) As per #3, except you bind other types of fire-related entities, such as a spirit of fire and cleansing.

5) Worldwalk the guy into a fire-related part of the Nevernever where the natural conditions promote healing, or pull in part of those conditions into the physical world. Several places in Summer should have natural conditions that promote life, regrowth and renewal.

*Universal magic- true, which is why it takes great rationalization.  His character is supposedly convinced all magic comes from fire, but he still needs to rationalize it well- he's still a focused practitioner.
1)That is a good example of a rationalization.  He would have to roll Scholarship to understand the biological mechanisms involved, and it would be a challenging ritual to perform obviously not a combat scenario).
2)Same as 1), but the rolls would be astronomically high (hopefully offset by a medical aspect, fine control aspect, scholarship rolls out the wazoo).
3)Fae with deals are fun  , though he's already killed a Seelie Fae.
4)People earlier suggested a phoenix as well, which is nice because of the direct fire/healing metaphor.
5)I like this one, because of fun plot development.  Especially since the Seelie probably don't like him now....

[sinker]

*Universal magic- true, which is why it takes great rationalization.  His character is supposedly convinced all magic comes from fire, but he still needs to rationalize it well- he's still a focused practitioner.

If this is true then from a thematic standpoint he already has all the rationalization he needs. If all magic comes from fire (which he believes, making it true for his magic) then he is capable of performing all magic. A person's view of how magic works actually shapes the way their magic works (which is why you can have thematically different element sets).

Now from a mechanical standpoint this is completely ridiculous because it has no limitations whatsoever, while still only costing 2 refresh.

[Gatts]

If this is true then from a thematic standpoint he already has all the rationalization he needs. If all magic comes from fire (which he believes, making it true for his magic) then he is capable of performing all magic. A person's view of how magic works actually shapes the way their magic works (which is why you can have thematically different element sets).

Now from a mechanical standpoint this is completely ridiculous because it has no limitations whatsoever, while still only costing 2 refresh.

I guess you could go that route. Take a Pyromancy related aspect, but take Full Evocation anyway (or Sponsored Magic: Hellfire, perhaps with a refluff).

[Belial666]

This is actually pretty close to what my dark sorceress is doing. She's using outsider magic as a source and she's using Void, the unmaking of creation, for her flavor of magic. She has some very real limitations that have come up often in the game but she can do amazingly complex and varied things with enough willpower and imagination. (sort of how a Green Lantern can only really create constructs but can use that ability to pretty much do anything?) Of course, there's the small inconvenience of the White Council and their punishment for black magic being decapitation. 

[Katarn]

Yeah, I going to talk to him about the "Pyromancy is all" concept to see how well he can justify it (in the words of Bill O'Reilly:  Water? You can't explain that.)

Basically, if he sticks to the concept it's going to be a lot of explanations of the actual fire mechanics, Scholarship, and Lore rolls.  Also, a lot of this will be restricted to Ritual versus Channeling.

As for a Sponsored Magic, maybe- but his character is fairly independent so I don't think he'll go that route initially.

I like the Void concept- I think it works better than "monopyromancy" because it's not described as a particular element, whereas fire as specific connotations and denotations.

[ARedthorn]

1) As most chemists will tell you, chemical -and by extension biological- reactions increase pace geometrically with the increase of temperature and thus offered energy. So you render his body magically invulnerable to any actual damage by fire, while you simultaneously increase his temperature by, say, sixty degrees. That results in a speed-up of his biological functions of about 30x without him being fried into a crisp (since the magic prevents that damage). A day's of healing and recovery in under an hour. A month's of healing and recovery within a day. You're just providing the energy required and making the organism capable of actually working at those extreme speeds without burning out.

2) Selectively destroy diseases, viruses and damaged cells while regulating the victim's temperature for maximum recovery speed and shocking the nerves into feeling no pain / relaxing the muscles and sealing wounds by freezing the blood flow (and only the blood flow) out of them while keeping the surrounding area warm. This is more natural but actually more complicated than #1 in terms of how fine control and how much medical knowledge it requires.

3) Summon a Summer Fae. They're creatures of fire so you can do it. Then bind it into healing the guy for you.

4) As per #3, except you bind other types of fire-related entities, such as a spirit of fire and cleansing.

5) Worldwalk the guy into a fire-related part of the Nevernever where the natural conditions promote healing, or pull in part of those conditions into the physical world. Several places in Summer should have natural conditions that promote life, regrowth and renewal.

I'd allow any or all of these- as long as the player (note- the player, not the character) chose to pursue it ANYWAY in spite of being warned of potential consequences.

1) in mild cases, at least, you've aged the person as well, and/or possibly aggravated any pre-existing conditions. That much of an accelerated metabolism would have problems in the dietary way while we're at it. Worst case scenario/extreme cases (I wouldn't personally break this one out), some Warden might mistake it for fiddling with Time, and you'll have to explain yourself very quickly. In which case, he'll mistake it for fiddling with someone else's body.

2) as complex as the body is, and as much as Dresden stresses the difficulty in holding a perfect image of that body, it'd be easily possible to cause some permanent nerve damage or cause a harmful lasting medical condition. This... this I'd work out with the target in the next room over, rather than with the caster (most likely I'd make it minor and recoverable, but work with the target to play it up a bit).

3/4) uh... yeah.

5) whole plots possible from that one.