Author Topic: Thaumaturgical counterspell?  (Read 5033 times)

Offline Todjaeger

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Re: Thaumaturgical counterspell?
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2011, 06:05:29 PM »
Again, go with what a group agrees with, if using Thaumaturgy works for a group, fine, if it doesn't, don't.  As long as a group follows their interpretation consistently it will most likely be okay.  However, going between different groups could be a issue.

For those attempting to follow the RAW strictly, YS253 does state that Counterspell is an Evocation effect.

...so an Thaumaturgical equivalent should be possible, as long as one can get a symbolic link to the energy of the spell (as it is that which is being attacked here).

I see no real difference in a Counterspell based on Evocation or Thaumaturgy, really. The benefits of a Thaumaturgical counterspell would be that more powerful ongoing effects can be targeted more safely and that the caster do not have to have a line of sight to the target (and some "targets", like a curse, would be impossible to get a line of sight to...  :)). The drawbacks are of course time and the need for symbolic links.

There are two issues here from the way I see things. 

The first is that a Counterspell per RAW requires two things, and a third is suggested.  The practioner needs to summon power for the Counterspell using Conviction, and use Discipline to Control that power.  It is also suggested that Lore be used to assess the spell being countered to determine how much power is needed to Counterspell it, since too little means nothing changes, and too much power could result in Fallout or Backlash.  There is no mention of any need for symbolic links or anything else, all a practioner needs is to be able to summon and control enough power to meet or beat the target of the Counterspell.
 
Now for the second issue.  Thaumaturgy works and is cast differently than Evocation.  The way I usually work it, is to have the player decide what sort of effect(s) they want the working to have, and use that to determine the level of Complexity for the ritual.  The character then uses its Lore skill, any appropriate Aspects with Fate points, creates new temporary Aspects to Tag, and skips scenes until there is sufficient Complexity to cast the desired ritual.  Once the Complexity is out of the way, the character then uses Conviction to draw shifts of power each turn, while making Discipline checks to make sure that the power drawn on any given turn is controlled.  Once sufficient power has been drawn (without having the spell blow up) the ritual is cast.  Depending on the Complexity of a particular working, and the Conviction, Discipline and Lore skills of the practioner, such a ritual could be cast as quickly as a minute, or it could require days, weeks or even months of preparation...

From YS253, there is no mention of any Complexity involved, it is just a straight up immediate disruption of the energy within a spell which has already been cast.  One could certainly use the Thaumaturgy rules to create a ritual to cancel out or dispel an existing ritual working with a duration, but I don't see a feasible way of using Thaumaturgy to counter/cancel Evocation.  Given that time exchanges used for Evocation start at Instant, and a fight using Evocation would usually last less than a minute even though it could have multiple exchanges, while the time increment for Thaumaturgy generally starts at A Minute and goes up from there.

As I read the rules, an Evocation Counterspell can't be cast to counter a direct effect (like an attack) - only an effect with a duration (like a Maneuver or a Block) can be countered. So the spell with a duration has already "gone off" when the caster tries to cast the Counterspell - I can't see that a Wizard can Counterspell an Evocation as it being cast.   

So if an ongoing effects from a Thaumaturgical ritual of 10 shifts (lasting, say an afternoon) is hit by a 10 shift Counterspell (based on Evocation or, if allowed, Thaumaturgy), the effect of the ritual will be stopped for one exchange and then resumed? That is not the way I read the rules. If that was the case, a Counterspell is useless, and must be re-cast every exchange.

Actuall, the example on YS253 says that if the Counterspell succeeds, the effects of the ongoing spell is gone (not stopped, to be resumed)

Regarding an effect being Counterspelled and then resuming, the third sentence under the Counterspell heading on YS253 reads:

Quote
While such an attempt may only be temporary, it can buy the wizard precious time.

What that says to me is than an effect can be negated, briefly perhaps, and then end up resuming once someone is no longer actively Counterspelling the effect.

Going further with this explanation, the example in YS has Harry Counterspelling an Evocation (or possibly Evocation-based Sponsored Magic) cast by a Denarian.  In this instance, unless the Denarian had spent shifts to sustain the Evocation, once Harry successfully Counterspelled it, the Evocation would just wink out.

This is of particular importance with respect to Wards and other long-duration castings which can have extended durations and special conditions like Wardflames and keyed links which increase the overall difficulty of the spell, but don't add directly to the defensive power of the spell.

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Offline sinker

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Re: Thaumaturgical counterspell?
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2011, 06:25:51 PM »
One could certainly use the Thaumaturgy rules to create a ritual to cancel out or dispel an existing ritual working with a duration, but I don't see a feasible way of using Thaumaturgy to counter/cancel Evocation.  Given that time exchanges used for Evocation start at Instant, and a fight using Evocation would usually last less than a minute even though it could have multiple exchanges, while the time increment for Thaumaturgy generally starts at A Minute and goes up from there.

Assuming I understand you correctly and you are talking about casting times, and not duration, I'm not sure that this is true anymore. It seems to me that the book makes plenty of mention of thaumaturgy taking place during conflict. The more I think about it, the more I wonder if the preparation is likely the aspect that they intend taking time, while the casting takes as much time as evocation (at least in terms of summoning and controlling energy once).

Of course this is all something that I've come to through the whole of my experience, with no immediate evidence backing it up, so it doesn't make a great rebuttal. Just something to think about.

Going further with this explanation, the example in YS has Harry Counterspelling an Evocation (or possibly Evocation-based Sponsored Magic) cast by a Denarian.  In this instance, unless the Denarian had spent shifts to sustain the Evocation, once Harry successfully Counterspelled it, the Evocation would just wink out.

This is of particular importance with respect to Wards and other long-duration castings which can have extended durations and special conditions like Wardflames and keyed links which increase the overall difficulty of the spell, but don't add directly to the defensive power of the spell.

Are you suggesting that there is any way to cast a counterspell with duration being equal (Evocation vs evocation, or ritual vs ritual) in which one could successfully counter, but then have the countered spell return? To successfully counterspell don't you need to match the shifts of power in the original spell (which would include any shifts devoted to duration)?

I can kind-of understand the other argument you were making (or at least what I thought you were making) about evocation not working on the same duration track as thaumaturgy, but when we are talking about evocation vs evocation I can't think of any situation where the counter wouldn't just fail, or remove the spell entirely.

Offline Todjaeger

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Re: Thaumaturgical counterspell?
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2011, 06:55:19 PM »
Assuming I understand you correctly and you are talking about casting times, and not duration, I'm not sure that this is true anymore. It seems to me that the book makes plenty of mention of thaumaturgy taking place during conflict. The more I think about it, the more I wonder if the preparation is likely the aspect that they intend taking time, while the casting takes as much time as evocation (at least in terms of summoning and controlling energy once).

Of course this is all something that I've come to through the whole of my experience, with no immediate evidence backing it up, so it doesn't make a great rebuttal. Just something to think about.

There is one canon example that I'm aware of where Thaumaturgy was used during a conflict, and that was in Changes.
(click to show/hide)

Are you suggesting that there is any way to cast a counterspell with duration being equal (Evocation vs evocation, or ritual vs ritual) in which one could successfully counter, but then have the countered spell return? To successfully counterspell don't you need to match the shifts of power in the original spell (which would include any shifts devoted to duration)?

I can kind-of understand the other argument you were making (or at least what I thought you were making) about evocation not working on the same duration track as thaumaturgy, but when we are talking about evocation vs evocation I can't think of any situation where the counter wouldn't just fail, or remove the spell entirely.

In terms of Evocation vs. Evocation, there are two ways to spell power.  The first is the total spell power (effect + duration) and the second is just effect power.  A great example to illustrate this would be a Block spell.

The Block spell could have a Block: 4 (power 4) , and then a duration of 3 exchanges (+2 power) for a total power of 6.  Now on YS253 under Counterspell it reads:

Quote
You need to equal or surpass the power of the effect you want to disrupt, and you roll it just like you would roll an attack spell.

It doesn't mention the 'total power' of the spell, just the power of the effect, which the way I read it (and this is subject to interpretation since the example doesn't clarify this...) would be a Block of 4, thus requiring 4 shifts of power to Counterspell, but unless something was done to sustain the Counterspell, at the end of the exchange, the Counterspelled Block would re-appear.

From my perspective, this difference between the 'total' power and effect power becomes particularly important with respect to Counterspelling Rituals and similar.  As an example a character in a campaign I'm in has a Ward around his cabin to protect it.  The Complexity (and power required) for the Ward was 16, but the Ward itself only has a Block strength of 8, with 2 shifts allocated to Wardflames, 2 shifts allocated to a symbolic link to warn him when he's away from his cabin, and 4 shifts allocated to duration, bumping it from a single day to a month.  If you go by a 'total' power requirement, then it would require 16 shifts to disrupt the Ward, while if you're attempting to Counterspell to bypass the Block: 8 it would only require 8 shifts...

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Offline sinker

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Re: Thaumaturgical counterspell?
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2011, 07:10:23 PM »
Ok, I can see where you're getting that interpretation. I disagree with it, but that's fine.

Offline Todjaeger

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Re: Thaumaturgical counterspell?
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2011, 08:39:54 PM »
Ok, I can see where you're getting that interpretation. I disagree with it, but that's fine.

Yeah, a great deal of the rules is subject to some interpretation, which people are free to agree or disagree with.

What I've been working on, and what has shaped some of my interpretation of how Counterspelling works, is by attempting to determine how to use Thaumaturgy to completely dispel a persistent magical effect.

So far my thinking (pay no mind to that burning smell...) is that at a minimum the complexity of the dispel ritual and therefore associated power, needs to beat the total complexity of the working being dispelled.  What I'm not sure of at this point is by how much of a margin they should need to beat it.  A margin of +1 sounds too weak to me, particularly since if a Ward is being 'brute forced' it needs to be taken to -4.  In the example I gave of a Ward on a PC's cabin with a Block strength of 8, to completely nullify it all at once using Evocation would require a single 20-shift Evocation attack, or a combination of successive weaker Evocation attacks.  A 17-shift Thaumaturgy casting sounds too easy, since that many shifts can take time to be done via Thaumaturgy, but is much easier to accomplish than the same number of shifts via Evocation. 

I would be interested to hear others thoughts on this matter of using Thaumaturgy to dispel persistent effects.

-Cheers
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Thaumaturgical counterspell?
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2011, 09:17:28 PM »
20 shifts of effect from an evocation attack against an 8-shift block (ward) requires only 15 shifts of power, assuming equal control.
20 shifts of effect from a thaumaturgy attack against an 8-shift block, on the other hand, requires 28 shifts of complexity.
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Offline sinker

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Re: Thaumaturgical counterspell?
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2011, 11:18:21 PM »
Except when you're actually attacking the block, then the strength of the block is kind-of already accounted for.

I'm a little confused on the math in general though, because taking out an 8-shift ward with evocation would require a lot more than twenty shifts wouldn't it? Wouldn't it require 50 shifts of effect total (I suppose half of which could come from control rolls)? Even more if you wanted to ensure that it is gone in the quickest way possible (and with no attacks wasted).

Nevermind! My brain exploded. Twenty shifts is right.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 12:33:03 AM by sinker »

Offline Watson

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Re: Thaumaturgical counterspell?
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2011, 11:30:09 AM »
20 shifts of effect from an evocation attack against an 8-shift block (ward) requires only 15 shifts of power, assuming equal control.
20 shifts of effect from a thaumaturgy attack against an 8-shift block, on the other hand, requires 28 shifts of complexity.

Could you please explain?

Thanks.

Offline computerking

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Re: Thaumaturgical counterspell?
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2011, 11:55:15 AM »
I think he's looking at it like this:
Wards don't dodge, so 15 shifts of Power, + 15 shifts of Control= 30 total shifts, devastating the Ward.
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Offline sinker

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Re: Thaumaturgical counterspell?
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2011, 05:19:00 PM »
I don't know why Tedronai would say 15 shifts since we are assuming an equal control roll (in which case 10 shifts of power + a 10 shift control roll would equal 20 shifts of effect), but what he's saying is that the control roll factors into the total shifts of effort.

The second part's wrong though. Since we are intentionally attacking the ward that amount is already factored into the shifts necessary. An 8 shift ward requires 8 shifts to overcome the ward, then 12 shifts to reduce it to -4. If we were trying to effect something on the other side of the ward with a 20 shift effect, then yes we would need 28 shifts.

Offline computerking

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Re: Thaumaturgical counterspell?
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2011, 06:14:28 PM »
I'm really not sure if what I said was what he meant, just guessing.
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Thaumaturgical counterspell?
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2011, 11:03:52 PM »
I may be mistaken, and I don't have my books on hand at the moment, but I was under the impression that the block from Wards DO reduce effects directed at the ward itself.

Either way, computerking got the gist of my point: that for evocation, control contributes to shifts of effect, while the same is not true for thaumaturgy.
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Offline zenten

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Re: Thaumaturgical counterspell?
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2011, 03:04:22 AM »
I'm noy sure about counterspells since they're described as being like attacks, but for most kinds of evocation the control roll does not improve the power of the spell.  If you are doing a Block for instance it doesn't matter how good your control roll is if you're willing to take backlash.  The only difference is for Attacks, where the control roll is also the roll to hit, and thus contributes to the stress inflicted.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Thaumaturgical counterspell?
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2011, 03:31:13 AM »
Good thing we're not talking about evocation blocks?
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Offline sinker

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Re: Thaumaturgical counterspell?
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2011, 07:22:16 AM »
I may be mistaken, and I don't have my books on hand at the moment, but I was under the impression that the block from Wards DO reduce effects directed at the ward itself.

They do reduce effects directed at themselves, that's not at question. The issue is that we don't need 20 shifts to destroy the ward (which would mean 28 total shifts), we need twelve (which means 20 total).