The math of shifting skill defaults

[zenten]

So the PCs in my game have hit another major milestone (or is that significant?  Whichever one gives a bonus to refresh.). The PCs are running out of relevant skills to take, so I said I would up the skill cap to +6, and change the default to +1 instead of 0.  I thought that giving any PC with 6 skills at +1 an extra skill point would all the change that would be needed, since no one has less than 5 skills at +1, but now I'm not so sure.  And even if it is how do I calculate the new "skill points spent" if someone makes a new PC?

[Anher]

Well, the first problem I see with this is that if every skill defaults to +1 wouldn't that mean that the players either a) get a refund of 1 skill point back on every skill they've purchased? or b) the players have just been cheated of spending points to have a +1 in their skills in the first place since that's the new default level?, which in effect negates the point of them having spent them in the first place.  Either way that seems like an issue to me.

I'm assuming by 'relavent' you mean the main skills each character uses a lot for their template and the combat skills. If that's the case you might want to start looking at ways the skills that haven't come up often or haven't come up at all in the game see some use. That can force the characters to broaden their skill set. Or perhaps have the players look at some of the skills they don't have an figure out how taking them could help their character improve one of their main skills: 'You honed your weapon skills by practicing caligraphy?' 'Yes, since it requires flowing, yet precise movements it help me gain better control.' That makes no skill really irrelavent, instead they become stepping stones and a chance for your players to come up with interesting little vingettes which you may be able to use for later plots.

[ways and means]

I would imagine the players would be refunded the skill points to be put in higher skills which doesn't seem a problem, the only issue with it is logic as to why someone is now not bad at anything.

[Anher]

I would imagine the players would be refunded the skill points to be put in higher skills which doesn't seem a problem, the only issue with it is logic as to why someone is now not bad at anything.

Well, if everyone gets those points refunded they could immediately take them and put them on the +1 skills and boost them to +2... Which again begs the question of how everyone is suddenly good at everything.

[zenten]

I don't think I explained myself very well, so let me try again.

The plan is to take each character sheet, and erase all +1 (Average) skills.  Then shift down all +2 skills to the +1 spot.  Then shift down the +3 skills to the +2 spot, and so on.  Then once all skills are shifted down one level change where it says +1 on the side of the character sheet to say +2, change where it says +2 to say plus +3, and so on.  When a player rolls for something they don't have a skill in they roll at +1 (Average) instead of +0 (Mediocre).

I want to do this in a way that ensures that all PCs still have the same number of skill points, and to know what that new skill point total is if someone needs to make a new PC.

[Tsunami]

You are aware that raising the default to +1, is like giving the players a number of skill points equal to the number of skills not on their sheet?

There are 25 skill in the Game
If you assume a pyramid of 15 skills like this

x
xx
xxx
xxxx
xxxxx

Then raising the default would effectively result in a pyramid like this. (10 additional level 1 skills = 10 Skill points)

x
xx
xxx
xxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

That's assuming you're not increasing all the other skills by +1 too, or refund skill points to reflect the difference to the new default. If you do that, then you effectively give the players 25 Skill points.
Going of the example pyramid: Even if you only refund the original level 1 skills, you are skill giving out 15 extra skill points.

New characters created with a +1 default will effectively be starting with all skills at +1 instead of +0 and then add more from there, which is like having 25 more skill points too.

Just to illustrate the scope of this change.



I think you should just go with increasing the Skill cap and leave it at that.
Also: i don't think there are irrelevant skills. There are skills more or less relevant to different char concepts, yes. But why shouldn't they broaden their abilities.
Hendricks is working on his thesis is he not ? *g*

[zenten]

When I said "all PCs have the same number of skill points" I should have said "all PCs still have the same number of skill points as each other".

[zenten]

Tsunami: there are two problems with your suggestion.  One, the PCs will be having a very cluttered sheet, with a bunch of skill the player doesn't care about.

The other is eventually (and not that far off from where things are now in my game) all skill advancement will stop.   

[Anher]

The other is eventually (and not that far off from where things are now in my game) all skill advancement will stop.   

Why is this the case? There is theoretically no effective high end cap for skills, though after +9 it becomes rather silly. So with 25 skills that means you'd have to have 225 skill points to max every single one at +9. Unless you're handing them out like candy I think it will be some time for the characters to get there.

I'm also of the opinion that no skill is more relavent than any other in the game. If your players are finding it easy to accomplish the same kind of problem you've been throwing at them it may be time to throw a completely different kind of problem at them, one that plays to the skills that not everyone is good at.

[Tsunami]

Out of curiosity, how many skill points do the PCs have now??

Because to get to a pyramid of

xxxx
xxxx
xxxx
xxxx
xxxx
xxxxx

Which is the absolute max you can get to with a Skill cap of 6 (All 25 skills are used at that point)
You need a total of 85 skill points.
Are you really close to that ??  (that's about 150 to 200 sessions assuming a significant milestone every 3-4 sessions... respect)

Even more extreme:
If you keep increasing the cap, you'll eventually end up with a column 25 high and 1 wide, which would require 325 skill points to fill.
If you can keep your game running that long that is *g*

Plenty of room for advancement i think :-P

[Sanctaphrax]

Ignoring the why, here's my suggestion for the how:

Take the number of skill points that your players have, then subtract the lowest number of Average skills that one of them has.

Then erase their skill lists and tell them to buy a valid pyramid of Fair to Fantastic skills with that many skill points.

A full rewrite seems like the most practical approach here.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Out of curiosity, how many skill points do the PCs have now??

Because to get to a pyramid of

xxxx
xxxx
xxxx
xxxx
xxxx
xxxxx

Which is the absolute max you can get to with a Skill cap of 6 (All 25 skills are used at that point)
You need a total of 85 skill points.
Are you really close to that ??  (that's about 150 to 200 sessions assuming a significant milestone every 3-4 sessions... respect)

Even more extreme:
If you keep increasing the cap, you'll eventually end up with a column 25 high and 1 wide, which would require 325 skill points to fill.
If you can keep your game running that long that is *g*

Plenty of room for advancement i think :-P

Seriously!  If you're in any danger of them running out of anything (not anything useful. everything is useful.) they can still raise, you've been handing out significant milestones like candy or you play a staggering amount.  Simply raising the cap to six should be able to keep them able to advance until they can smack down most angels.  You might raise the cap once or twice more but by then you're looking at seriously legendary characters;  as in stories will be told about them thousands of years from now.

There's absolutely no need to go monkeying with the default entry point of the skill tree.