Author Topic: Cleaning Up The Stunt List  (Read 31931 times)

Offline ways and means

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #75 on: October 27, 2011, 02:04:33 PM »
I re-read the stunt rules and there is no rule that all skill trapping stunts need to have a usage limit on them other than effecting a single trapping, in fact if you look at examples from the book.   

Footwork: You’re fast on your feet and have
been in enough fistfights to know how to make
yourself a hard target. You may use Fists to
dodge attacks instead of Athletics, in all the
circumstances where Athletics might apply
(page 121). Your Story

You can see that the stunt is a direct swap of trappings with no limitations beyond the trappings in the first place. I think that mostly skill swapping is fine without a limitation as long as it makes some kind of sense and isn't too supernatural (when it can become a power which does the same thing).

So in my opinion a stunt like the one below would be perfectly balanced.

War Dance/Fancy Footwork (performance): You are light on your feet and know how to use your graceful movements and perfect balance to dance out the way of your enemies attack and make your self a hard target. You may use Performance to dodge attacks instead of Athletics, in all the circumstances where Athletics might apply.

Also if you look at all the social stunt examples in the books that give a bonus they all involve +2 (Sex Appeal, Personal Magnetism, Infuriate, You Don’t Want Any of This, social graces, won't get fooled again etc) which seems to imply that the +1 to attacks is a rule meant for physical conflict rather than the other types of conflict. Now you may disagree with the balance of stunts in the book but I use them as a framework and as what to balance against so think +2 social stunts are ok in my opinion. 
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Offline admiralducksauce

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #76 on: October 27, 2011, 02:18:51 PM »
It completely violates the you-get-to-choose-your-own-consequences section of the rules and there are a whole host of problems with violating that.

YES.  Thank you for putting that into words.  It also bypasses the stress track, which means it also bypasses most of a Toughness power's utility.

It's salvageable, though.  Make the stunt require a FP and/or make it useful once a scene.  Don't allow the attacker to choose the consequence.

Brutality 2.0: Once per scene (and/or for a FP), on a successful attack you may force your opponent to take a consequence.  This forced consequence reduces the incoming stress normally, and any stress remaining must be soaked through marking stress boxes or by taking additional consequences.

Not sure if I worded that well, but my idea is basically that you say your opponent must take a consequence as part of their damage management strategy for this attack.  That seems kosher to me, especially by limiting it to once a scene and/or for a FP.

Offline wyvern

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #77 on: October 27, 2011, 07:10:42 PM »
You can see that the stunt is a direct swap of trappings with no limitations beyond the trappings in the first place. I think that mostly skill swapping is fine without a limitation as long as it makes some kind of sense and isn't too supernatural (when it can become a power which does the same thing).

Nope.  Footwork is actually a limited swap.  Why?  Because the fists skill can *already* defend against melee attacks (or, depending on your gm, some limited categories of melee attacks).  So the stunt adds, at most, defense against ranged attacks (& perhaps defense against weaponry based attacks, if your GM doesn't let fists defend against those to start with.)

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #78 on: October 27, 2011, 08:23:30 PM »
Thanks, Arcane.

Anyway, wyvern is right about Footwork. For further support of my position, see the bit in YS about the development of a Guns dodging stunt.

I also use the canon stunts as a framework. But when the rules and the examples conflict, I think we should go with the rules. And last time I checked the rules said that attacks were limited to a +1 bonus from stunts. No mention of physical/mental/social differences.

Which is bad news for Infuriate and maybe Sex Appeal. I think the other stunts you mentioned should be fine, though.

Really don't like the new version of Brutality, for reasons I won't get into right now. But I'm starting to see some of the problems with the current version. Let me go down them one by one:

-It violates the "choose your own consequences" thing. I'm still not sure why this is a problem.
-It can inflict mental and social consequences. Bad writing, sorry.
-It bypasses the stress track. Bad writing, sorry.
-It lets you skip the lower levels of consequence. Not sure exactly why this is a problem.
-It can inflict extreme consequences. I'm torn on this one. On one hand, you can already do this by taking someone out. On the other hand, extreme consequences should be somewhat sancrosant. Will think about this.

The original idea was to make it possible to deliberately cut a guy's arm off in a fight. I figured it'd be balanced since you pretty much have to take a guy to use it (yes I know I screwed that up by letting it ignore the stress track) which would let you freely inflict consequences anyway.

PS: @ways and means: "In accordance with the rules" is not the same as "perfectly balanced".

Offline admiralducksauce

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #79 on: October 27, 2011, 09:10:16 PM »
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It violates the "choose your own consequences" thing. I'm still not sure why this is a problem.

Because the victim chooses their consequence.  It's... it's just part of the player's rights, and I don't think it should be taken away because of special powers.

Forcing a certain level of consequence is much more palatable than forcing the NAME of a consequence upon the victim.  IMO, if you want to cut a guy's arm off, you Take him Out.

Offline ALurker

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #80 on: October 28, 2011, 01:01:05 AM »
-It violates the "choose your own consequences" thing. I'm still not sure why this is a problem.
Because a smart person would create aspects that compel the other person and give you a lot more of an advantage in combat than a +2 tag. Also see the bit about about player rights. To quote you from the Forcing Realistic Consequences thread "Most people lack consequence tracks partly because they aren't that invested in the fight" and with this stunt you are forcing people to be that invested in the combat no matter if they want to be or not.
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-It lets you skip the lower levels of consequence. Not sure exactly why this is a problem.
Because normally someone can take multiple lower level consequence instead of a higher level consequence if they don't want to be severely impeded.
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-It can inflict extreme consequences. I'm torn on this one. On one hand, you can already do this by taking someone out. On the other hand, extreme consequences should be somewhat sancrosant. Will think about this.
Yes, but you have to take someone out to do that, if you give them an extreme consequence in the middle of combat, they might as well already be taken out.
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The original idea was to make it possible to deliberately cut a guy's arm off in a fight. I figured it'd be balanced since you pretty much have to take a guy to use it (yes I know I screwed that up by letting it ignore the stress track) which would let you freely inflict consequences anyway.
I would suggest you just use Called Shots, it's not perfectly what you want since it's not long term but it is close and not broken. You could even make so Brutality makes it harder to shake off a tag from a called shot.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 01:44:59 AM by ALurker »

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #81 on: October 28, 2011, 05:14:20 AM »
You can already force consequences on people after taking them out. Even if they weren't invested enough in the fight to take consequences in it. It's dirty pool to stomp a guy's spine in half after beating him in a friendly martial arts competition, but you can totally do it.

And it's almost impossible to inflict a consequence that will necessarily be worse than another consequence of the same severity. Compels are in the GM's hands, and they are only broken if he makes them so.

And a mild and a moderate are actually worse than a severe in the short term, barring compels.

Also, an extreme consequence impedes a guy no more than a mild, barring compels. So inflicting one doesn't mean you've won.

So I don't take any of those criticisms terribly seriously.

What I do take seriously in the mention of player rights. There's a social contract involved in gaming, and if this violates that then this has gotta go.

I wonder if the playerbase at large feels that it'd be inappropriate to force consequences...

I'm intrigued by this mention of Called Shots. What are those?

PS: It kinda bugs me that you can't deliberately break someone's arm in this game. The guy can always choose to take some other consequence. The only way around this is to take them out, and that shouldn't be a requirement for deliberately injuring someone. Hence the stunt. If someone has a better way to handle this, I'm all ears.

Offline Selrach

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #82 on: October 28, 2011, 05:22:23 AM »
I was rereading the basic rules and I noticed half of Way of the Gun is useless. Guns is already used for gun knowledge and gun repair so all the stunt currently grants is +1 Stress. I would suggest it allows you to make declarations about Guns.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #83 on: October 28, 2011, 05:52:52 AM »
Gah, I need my books back. Lending them out wasn't the best idea I've ever had.

Can you make guns with Guns? If not, that side of the stunt still has a use...though it would need rewording.

Offline Selrach

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #84 on: October 28, 2011, 06:02:17 AM »
According to the book it is only maintenance, care,knowledge, and repair. By RAW, no, the Guns trappings does not allow the building of guns but it does not seem like much of stretch to allow the building of guns by restricting the roll by your craftsmanship. To me the stunt still feels a little lacking but I do like the flavor of it.
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Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #85 on: October 28, 2011, 08:47:59 AM »
@Sanctphrax

Brutality:

It creates a snowball rolling downhill effect.  Once you get the chink in the armor; that one mild consequence (or worse) everyone in the group gets to tag it with fate points, one guy gets to tag it free.  it's only a matter of time before the foe falls.  Normally you have to work to get that consequence on your foe.

I think the way it is worded it bypasses toughness as well as the stress track.

It creates a slew of problems.  If I purposely force a severe consequence and encounter the same foe again later...he has a consequence on him making hte fight easier for a fairly long time.  Extreme consequences take even longer to heal and come with an accompanying aspect change.   No stunt should be allowed to force extreme consequences: main reason - aspect change.  That seems not only unfair, but beyond the scope of what any power can do aside from transformation magic or mind magic.  both are far more powerful than stunts.

Two more issues:
1) without house ruling no game (or very few) allows you to just up and break someones arm or maim them in some fashion (aside from swords of sharpness in D&D) or (targeting mech parts in Mechwarrior RPG).  This system is really no different.

2)
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Extreme brutality should simply be axed.  Making it easier to inflict said consequences is just compounding this issue.

Offline ALurker

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #86 on: October 28, 2011, 02:08:08 PM »
You can already force consequences on people after taking them out. Even if they weren't invested enough in the fight to take consequences in it. It's dirty pool to stomp a guy's spine in half after beating him in a friendly martial arts competition, but you can totally do it.
Yes but people can see when they're going to be taken out and concede before hand. With Brutality the only way to concede before hand is to concede before you get hit.
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And it's almost impossible to inflict a consequence that will necessarily be worse than another consequence of the same severity. Compels are in the GM's hands, and they are only broken if he makes them so.
If by almost impossible you mean blindingly easy to do then yes. For example a consequence to your primary weapon hand would be worse than one to your off hand, even though they would be the same level.
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And a mild and a moderate are actually worse than a severe in the short term, barring compels.

Also, an extreme consequence impedes a guy no more than a mild, barring compels. So inflicting one doesn't mean you've won.

So I don't take any of those criticisms terribly seriously.
Inflicting something as extreme as well an extreme consequence is ripe for all kinds of invoking for effect and compels since quite frankly if they aren't in too much pain to think it would kind of strange. Also, the problem is mainly in the long term, not necessarily the short term since higher consequence take longer to go away.
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What I do take seriously in the mention of player rights. There's a social contract involved in gaming, and if this violates that then this has gotta go.

I wonder if the playerbase at large feels that it'd be inappropriate to force consequences...

I'm intrigued by this mention of Called Shots. What are those?

PS: It kinda bugs me that you can't deliberately break someone's arm in this game. The guy can always choose to take some other consequence. The only way around this is to take them out, and that shouldn't be a requirement for deliberately injuring someone. Hence the stunt. If someone has a better way to handle this, I'm all ears.
Called Shots are one of the basic maneuver types. They represent attempts to target attacks at specific parts of a person's body. They allow you to place aspects such as "Hurt Knee" on someone (note these aspects can't be as severe as consequences and the target can roll endurance to shake it off).

Also just because you want to be able to do something, doesn't meaning doing so is in anyway balanced.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 02:16:17 PM by ALurker »

Offline admiralducksauce

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #87 on: October 28, 2011, 04:09:16 PM »
Shield Of Dogma: Was thinking of putting the same restrictions on it as the default Rapport defence. What do you think of that?

That'd be fine with me.

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Feint: I was thinking of requiring a supplemental action per opponent for each exchange that you want to use this on. That would represent you making an effort to confuse and misdirect them. Would that make it better? What if it had a prerequisite allowing physical blocks with Deceit?

I know the general sway seems to be towards a flatter stunt list, but I actually do like the idea of a Stunt allowing Deceit blocks, and then have said stunt be a prerequsite for this stunt allowing physical defense through Deceit.  I like that more than I like the supplemental action thing, whose penalties I've found sometimes get forgotten about in the heat of... um... dice rolling.  :)

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Founded Upon Lies: I don't like this one for a few reasons. One is that aspects are generally equal and should remain that way. Another is that it involves too much bookkeeping. Another is that it might be broken. Another is that it boosts skills other than Deceit. Another is that it can give +2 to attacks. Bottom line, this needs a total rewrite.

How about just making this a Deceit version of Dirty Fighter then?  When tagging an opponent's Aspect as part of a Deceit action, you add three to your roll rather than adding two.

This way should limit extra bookkeeping on who has what Aspect, it only assists Deceit rolls, and it doesn't give more than an effective +1 to attacks.  I suppose maybe it does make some Aspects better than others, I can't help you there.

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Defensive Lies: Was thinking of copying Rapport defence with this one too. Rapport defence is broad, but not quite universal, so it kind of includes its own usage restriction.

I still like my "people who haven't gotten a read on you yet", but if that's too fiddly I don't have a problem with applying the "Rapport defense" solution.

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Defensive Focus: Yeah, this needs a different restriction. Not sure what sort of restriction, though. Maybe I should just bin it.

All these "use random skill to dodge attacks" stunts?  They should all be lumped together into one meta-Stunt.  Its name should be:

USE MY APEX SKILL TO NOT GET HIT: You may use your highest skill to dodge attacks, as per the Athletics trapping.  You must supply a reason why you should be able to use this skill to dodge, and your group must agree that it's 1) a well-thought-out and reasonable explanation or 2) just as full of crap as their own excuses, and to deny you the ability to dodge with Craftsmanship would be hypocritical.

Alternately, you must have at least one other stunt for your apex skill. (That's my mediocre attempt to even try to balance this)

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Reflexive Shield: I like this one too, but it makes me nervous. Was hoping that someone who had used it would say it was fine.

If we both like it, and nobody's bitched about it yet, it's probably ok to keep in the list until we hear otherwise.

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I'll Just Ignore You: I allow Discipline to defend against Intimidation and some Rapport already. This would expand that to the broadness of Rapport defence, like most of the other social defence stunts on this list. My experience with debating suggests that ignoring someone classily enough can work on an audience.

Rock on, then.  *APPROVED*

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Tough As Nails: I think the social version from YS only works against tags to boost attacks. So this should be the same.

Ah, I see.  The way it's currently written it'd apply to the opponent tagging your Aspects on a defense or whatnot.  I agree with your assessment, then.

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Clever Wrestling: Yeah, I don't know what I'm going to do with this one.

Let me come back at this one from the original intent, to reduce the grappling bonus from Strength powers.  That's already an acceptable restriction, I just don't like the variable effect and the fact that it's penalizing the opponent rather than assisting the stunt owner.  How about "When defending against a grappling attempt by an opponent with a Strength power, you add two to your defense roll.  Additionally, if you are grappled by an opponent with a Strength power, the effort of any actions you take is considered two higher for purposes of breaking the grapple."  Where I'm coming from here is that if the monster's grapple block strength is 5 and you roll a 4 on a Fists action, you don't deal damage to the monster but your roll of 4 is considered a 6 for escaping the grapple.

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Mounted Combat: Not a bad idea, but a) my mounted combat rules already allow you to use a Survival attack when running someone down with your horse and b) would rather not transplant multiple skills at once.

Then what you've got is okay with me.

Offline wyvern

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #88 on: October 28, 2011, 05:57:47 PM »
Just a random note on Reflexive Shield: I made an NPC wizard in my game who had that stunt / power / whatever-it-is.  When it came up, the PCs were all like "Woah, why can't I do that?" - but, when I explained that he'd spent actual refresh on the ability, nobody complained.  I've also considered a further improvement (for another refresh, and possibly requiring an appropriate sponsored magic) that would allow a character to simply defend using conviction or discipline - but I'd limit that to NPCs like The Merlin (defends with conviction because he's just that good at wards), or Listens-To-Wind (defends with discipline for having the control to deflect attacks just enough that they miss - though LTW's version might be limited to defense against magic).

Expert Mount: My first inclination was to copy the wording of a stunt like "Tireless", allowing might to be treated as +6 when it might otherwise restrict other skills.  On the other hand, that plays poorly with actual strength powers - and anything that can serve as a mount probably has at least inhuman strength.  Maybe a stunt that lets your rider defend using your athletics?  Not sure how balanced that is, but it makes sense...

Offline Blackblade

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #89 on: October 28, 2011, 06:26:32 PM »
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Defensive Lies: Was thinking of copying Rapport defence with this one too. Rapport defence is broad, but not quite universal, so it kind of includes its own usage restriction.

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I still like my "people who haven't gotten a read on you yet", but if that's too fiddly I don't have a problem with applying the "Rapport defense" solution.

Deceit already allows limited defense through the False Face Forward trapping (against Empathy and Intimidation actions, modified by your Rapport skill; could be interpreted to work against Rapport too.)  As such, I think that this stunt should be treated like footwork.  Granting it the abilities of a Rapport defense would be perfectly in line with regular guidelines.  Putting the "haven't gotten a read on you" requirement on it would make the stunt undercosted.