Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Then how would you explain spellcasters with magical items that use spells that they can't cast?  For example, I could make a character with just the Ritual power (or just Thaumaturgy, for that matter), and then give him an Enchanted Item that shoots lightning bolts a few times per session.  He can keep it, use it, recharge it and maintain it, and it's perfectly legal by the rules, even though he can't cast lightning spells or even any kind of Evocation at all.

Mostly I'd just say they don't need someone to explain it to them since they're the one creating the item in the first place.  It's like not needing a repair manual if you designed the car.  That's if I had to GM a game that allowed Ritual/Thaumaturgy crafters.  Personally, I don't allow them.

The obvious example is from the novels...  Harry's rings.  They recharge by automatically storing up kinetic energy as he moves his hands normally throughout the day (though actively hitting a punching seems to accelerate the process).  In that instance, the user doesn't need to do anything magical to replenish the spell, aside from knowing and understanding the mechanism by which it's replenished.

And then you have his duster, which doesn't.  If it's important to you that they do though, you'll probably pick up items that do by preference.  Kind of a non-issue.

Ah, I see now.

See, I viewed it more like a battery...  You just need to know how to pump magical energy back into the spell that's already there.  And you'd only need to recast the spell, should the item get damaged (like when Harry's shield bracelet gets burnt out protecting him from that elevator fall) and need to be repaired.

Yeah, I could see it going either way.  It's a GM's choice thing until Jim or the fine folks what made the DFRPG give us a ruling.

EDIT: formatting error

[Pbartender]

Mostly I'd just say they don't need someone to explain it to them since they're the one creating the item in the first place.

But how do you create the item, if you don't know the spell you're putting into it?  And especially, if insist the knowing the original spell is required to maintain it.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

But how do you create the item, if you don't know the spell you're putting into it?  And especially, if insist the knowing the original spell is required to maintain it.

See the bit about me not allowing Rituals/Thaumaturgy-only crafters.  I don't allow anyone to create an item with a spell they couldn't also cast.  If they can't cast Channeling/Evocation, they can't make items with them.  If they can't do water evo, they can't make water evo items.  If they have nothing but Rituals and put everything into item crafting, they can't make much of anything.

That's my campaigns though.  I don't go retroactively screwing with someone else's settings and characters if I end up GMing something in their world.

EDIT: typo

[InFerrumVeritas]

See the bit about me not allowing Rituals/Thaumaturgy-only crafters.  I don't allow anyone to create an item with a spell they couldn't also cast.  If they can't cast Channeling/Evocation, they can't make items with them.  If they can't do water evo, they can't make water evo items.  If they have nothing but Rituals and put everything into item crafting, they can't make much of anything.

That's my campaigns though.  I don't go retroactively screwing with someone else's settings and characters if I end up GMing something in their world.

EDIT: typo

See, I take the idea that Harry could do a perfect veil if he had all the time in the world and was meditating, not under stress, etc. even as early as Storm Front to mean that with Thaumaturgy, you can do any of evocation's effects, they just take a while.  Evocation is doing those effects quickly, channeling raw energy as opposed to performing a ritual to do so.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

See, I take the idea that Harry could do a perfect veil if he had all the time in the world and was meditating, not under stress, etc. even as early as Storm Front to mean that with Thaumaturgy, you can do any of evocation's effects, they just take a while.  Evocation is doing those effects quickly, channeling raw energy as opposed to performing a ritual to do so.

That's fine.  Enjoy.  I don't really disallow them for those reasons, that's just how I mechanically reason it out for the characters.  I disallow it because it lets a FP crafter with a -7 refresh easily dish out ten times the damage a proper wizard could with the same refresh over the course of a non-trivial fight.  I don't like to constantly be figuring ways around the same thing to keep a character from stealing every combat scene.  It's no fun for me and it's certainly no fun for them.

[Sanctaphrax]

Was going to participate in Crafter debate, then realized it was likely to cause a derail.

As for the power:

Definitely don't make it -0. If it were -0, then why wouldn't everyone take it?

And don't give a non-mechanical answer. Balancing crunch with fluff leads to people having to choose between playing what they want to play and getting the most out of their character, which is bad.

I'd say that 2 refresh would be enough for:

4 slots.
Ability to use Contacts and Resources to get items.
Ability to maintain items.
Ability to get extra uses of EIs with mental stress.
Ability to Declare potions on the fly, with story of how you got them.
Ability to buy Refinement for more slots.
Starting with a selection of weak items.

Basically, it's Ritual (Crafting) with Contacts/Resources rolls instead of actual Crafting.

Chop off some of that if you only want it to cost 1 refresh.

Bear in mind that owing to this game's basic structure this power will always have balance problems.

[Becq]

I agree with Mighty Buzzard's handling, and the reasons for doing so.

See, I take the idea that Harry could do a perfect veil if he had all the time in the world and was meditating, not under stress, etc. even as early as Storm Front to mean that with Thaumaturgy, you can do any of evocation's effects, they just take a while.  Evocation is doing those effects quickly, channeling raw energy as opposed to performing a ritual to do so.

Note that Harry has full Thaumaturgy, not just rituals.  He also has Spirit Evocation and can (theoretically) cast Evocation veils.  He's just not particularly good at it, due largely to compels against the "Not So Subtle" half of one of his aspects.  When given time to build the spell up slowly, however, he can do it, because he has full Thaum.

[ways and means]

Thaumaturgy can do pretty much anything with enough time, so enchanted items which are a type of Thaumaturgy (and can cast Thaumaturgical spells anyway which are usually stronger than evocation) can do pretty much anything (obviously limited by scale). Even with your rule that doesn't stop pure Thaumaturgy crafter weaponising Thaumaturgy spells to attack an enemy (attack of a summoned creatures, transformation, wall of conjured blades etc) or creating veils etc (which are Thaumaturgy spells as well).

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Thaumaturgy can do pretty much anything with enough time, so enchanted items which are a type of Thaumaturgy (and can cast Thaumaturgical spells anyway which are usually stronger than evocation) can do pretty much anything (obviously limited by scale). Even with your rule that doesn't stop pure Thaumaturgy crafter weaponising Thaumaturgy spells to attack an enemy (attack of a summoned creatures, transformation, wall of conjured blades etc) or creating veils etc (which are Thaumaturgy spells as well).

Yes, but if you let a Rituals(crafting)+Refinement character go entirely that way, a -15 cost character could take out Kemmler and anything he could throw at them.  It gets ridiculous very fast.  Which may be why Refinement is specifically allowed unlimited for Wizards, specifically one time each for evo/thaum for Sorcerors, and not mentioned at all for FP's.  Because they're not supposed to be able to take it at all.

[Sanctaphrax]

Please, let's not have the Crafter debate here. It's taken over too many good threads already.

I disagree strongly with what you just said, Mighty Buzzard. Make a new thread if you want to find out why.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Please, let's not have the Crafter debate here. It's taken over too many good threads already.

I disagree strongly with what you just said, Mighty Buzzard. Make a new thread if you want to find out why.

Nah, I don't particularly care if others want to run crafter character campaigns or why.  I just don't care for them.  But yeah, we've wandered off-topic enough.