The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
A Fallen scorned (GS spoilers)
Mira:
--- Quote from: Vairelome on December 13, 2011, 12:45:18 AM ---This was from the first post in this thread, and it's part of Salacia's theory that the whispering shadow revealed in GS wasn't the first time Lasciel had whispered in Harry's head, it was just the time with the biggest effect.
And the voice causes Harry momentary despair.
The italicized bit is rather telling, I think. Salacia searched for similar phrasing, and only found that line in TC and a few specific lines in Changes, which would fit the timeline I suggested above. Re-read her post at the beginning of this thread; it's quite well done.
--- End quote ---
I respectfully disagree, I believe you are reading too much into it. Actually there are examples all though the series, going back as far as Storm Front where Harry talks to himself in exactly that tone.
Vairelome:
Hmm, I seem to have phrased my point poorly. I didn't mean that the content of the italicized part was telling, I meant that its description was telling.
Because you need your brother to be all right, whispered a quiet voice in my head.
Given the significance of mental manipulation in the series, and specifically the nature of the Lasciel/Lash plotline, we should not quickly dismiss "a quiet voice whispering in Harry's head" as merely being part of Harry's normal internal thought processes.
I don't remember examples from Storm Front (or other books) where we're told "a quiet voice whispered in Harry's head," and we were meant to conclude that this was Harry thinking to himself. Can you provide examples from the text?
Mira:
--- Quote from: Vairelome on December 13, 2011, 05:26:05 AM ---Hmm, I seem to have phrased my point poorly. I didn't mean that the content of the italicized part was telling, I meant that its description was telling.
Because you need your brother to be all right, whispered a quiet voice in my head.
Given the significance of mental manipulation in the series, and specifically the nature of the Lasciel/Lash plotline, we should not quickly dismiss "a quiet voice whispering in Harry's head" as merely being part of Harry's normal internal thought processes.
I don't remember examples from Storm Front (or other books) where we're told "a quiet voice whispered in Harry's head," and we were meant to conclude that this was Harry thinking to himself. Can you provide examples from the text?
--- End quote ---
I can, but that will have to wait a while, I am up to my arm pits in holiday baking. However I will point out that Harry also had whole dialogues with himself when asleep and when injured, even an alternate Harry appearing in his vision before Lasciel ever became part of the picture, Fool Moon comes to mind. So even though I hear what you are saying about the image of the "quiet whisper" I do not think it is as straight forward.
toodeep:
--- Quote from: Vairelome on December 12, 2011, 11:47:06 AM ---I seem to remember rather a lot of Lasciel talking in his head, even when he no longer had skin contact with the coin. This mental contact abruptly cut off when the warding circle closed around the coin.
--- End quote ---
There was no Lasciel/Lash talking before the coin was put in the circle. That was the first thing Harry did after picking up the coin. It was only much later (after he chose to use hellfire) that he had an actual conversation with what became Lash. You could argue he never communicated with Lasciel.
--- Quote from: Vairelome on December 12, 2011, 11:47:06 AM ---Logically, if Lasciel was the whispering shadow, she would have to actually have the ability to whisper in Harry's head. Yes, this is obvious, but it's also important.... If Salacia's theory at the beginning of this thread is correct, Lasciel's whispers began in TC, and continued until the missing scene in Changes that was revealed in GS. Logically, we must conclude that Lasciel's coin was no longer behind a working warding circle, potentially as far back as sometime during TC.
--- End quote ---
Of course, this also assumes that the fallen in the coins would be allowed to "break the rules" an awful lot. You have to remember that that communication from the fallen angel to Harry was in some way a breaking of the rules that allowed a reply by Uriel. Somehow, I don't think a Denarian lying to their coinholder counts as breaking the rules. Once someone has chosen to open themselves up to a Denarian, they are allowed to talk/lie/ to their holder. So if this was Lasciel using her connection to Harry, then the lie may not have counted as a breaking of the rules.
Vairelome:
--- Quote from: toodeep on December 13, 2011, 08:12:24 PM ---There was no Lasciel/Lash talking before the coin was put in the circle. That was the first thing Harry did after picking up the coin. It was only much later (after he chose to use hellfire) that he had an actual conversation with what became Lash. You could argue he never communicated with Lasciel.
--- End quote ---
I remember there being communication on some level, though, because Harry found it difficult to bury the coin due to Lasciel's influence. I'd have to re-read the scene to sort it all out.
--- Quote from: toodeep on December 13, 2011, 08:12:24 PM ---Of course, this also assumes that the fallen in the coins would be allowed to "break the rules" an awful lot. You have to remember that that communication from the fallen angel to Harry was in some way a breaking of the rules that allowed a reply by Uriel. Somehow, I don't think a Denarian lying to their coinholder counts as breaking the rules. Once someone has chosen to open themselves up to a Denarian, they are allowed to talk/lie/ to their holder. So if this was Lasciel using her connection to Harry, then the lie may not have counted as a breaking of the rules.
--- End quote ---
The "breaking the rules" bit wasn't the fact of the communication itself, or the lie as such. It was specifically a lie told in circumstances that would force mortal's "choice" such that he could not exercise his free will, and that "choice" led to the mortal's death. The key points are the breaking of a mortal's free will, and that mortal's death as a direct consequence. (Uriel clarifies this when Harry asks why Shagnasty's horrendous torture of Thomas--including specifically the breaking of his free will in forcing him to kill repeatedly--did not count as "cheating/breaking the rules." According to Uriel, this was not sufficient because Thomas did not die as a result.)
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