Author Topic: Noob Questions  (Read 21651 times)

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Noob Questions
« Reply #135 on: October 07, 2011, 04:37:05 AM »
Depends on the ritual.

A ritual designed to kill the target or turn him into something useless should involve a take-out.

A ritual designed to add powers should have a cost based on the refresh cost of the powers involved. Maybe each power would cost its refresh cost times three or so in complexity. And you should use the temporary powers rules.

Maneuvers and other hard-to-classify stuff (like making one person look like another) would have to be done case-by-case, basically building the effect out of shifts.

Offline computerking

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Re: Noob Questions
« Reply #136 on: October 08, 2011, 08:33:03 PM »
Thanks for all the answers.

Here's another. Would casting a "Mind Bolt" that only does Mental damage be considered Breaking the 3rd or 4th Law, Although it does not technically invaded their thoughts or placed a Compulsion?

Also, the same question, but for a magic effect used to "transmute" physical damage into Mental Damage (for example the  Psychic Knife of Psylocke from the X-men Comics)?

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Offline The Mighty Buzzard

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Re: Noob Questions
« Reply #137 on: October 08, 2011, 09:35:35 PM »
Here's another. Would casting a "Mind Bolt" that only does Mental damage be considered Breaking the 3rd or 4th Law, Although it does not technically invaded their thoughts or placed a Compulsion?

Judgement call on the part of the GM as to whether it counts for Lawbreaker (it probably should) but it almost certainly counts for Warden Chopsalot.

Also, the same question, but for a magic effect used to "transmute" physical damage into Mental Damage (for example the  Psychic Knife of Psylocke from the X-men Comics)?

Same answer.  Method of delivery really doesn't matter.  If it's capable of inflicting mental consequences, it's almost always going to violate the 4th law.
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Offline computerking

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Re: Noob Questions
« Reply #138 on: October 08, 2011, 09:42:41 PM »
**hangs his head in shame at his typo**
HAS not invaded or placed.
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Offline sinker

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Re: Noob Questions
« Reply #139 on: October 08, 2011, 09:59:10 PM »
What I would suggest, computerking, is to go back and read the section on mental conflict on YS217-219. People often look at mental stress as exhaustion because of it's connection to magic, but to me it reads more like one's sense of self (which kinda still fits with the magic angle). When you do mental damage, you're damaging someone's concept of who they are. If that's appropriate for your attack then by all means use it, but if so then you're definitely breaking the fourth law by changing who they are with magic.

If you're just tiring someone out from the inside then IMHO it's still physical stress.

Offline computerking

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Re: Noob Questions
« Reply #140 on: October 08, 2011, 10:00:17 PM »
Questions about Enchanted Items: How many shifts of power would you need to have an EI that grants a Stunt? And would that stunt last an entire scene when activated?

What about multiple Stunts? Would they all activate together?

In the possibility of an EI granting the Venomous sub-power for one attack (maneuver), would it still require Enough Shifts of power to transform the user, or could it be made a part of the sword itself? And in either case, could it be altered to do subsequent Venom damage based on the user's Discipline instead of Fists or Weapons? (Concept: A magic-based poison that stops working after the scene, leaving the victim alive)
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Offline computerking

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Re: Noob Questions
« Reply #141 on: October 08, 2011, 10:01:55 PM »
What I would suggest, computerking, is to go back and read the section on mental conflict on YS217-219. People often look at mental stress as exhaustion because of it's connection to magic, but to me it reads more like one's sense of self (which kinda still fits with the magic angle). When you do mental damage, you're damaging someone's concept of who they are. If that's appropriate for your attack then by all means use it, but if so then you're definitely breaking the fourth law by changing who they are with magic.

If you're just tiring someone out from the inside then IMHO it's still physical stress.
Ah. I get it. And the sense of Self thing really fits in with Dresdenverse's concept of Magic.
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Offline sinker

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Re: Noob Questions
« Reply #142 on: October 08, 2011, 10:15:14 PM »
Questions about Enchanted Items: How many shifts of power would you need to have an EI that grants a Stunt? And would that stunt last an entire scene when activated?

What about multiple Stunts? Would they all activate together?

In the possibility of an EI granting the Venomous sub-power for one attack (maneuver), would it still require Enough Shifts of power to transform the user, or could it be made a part of the sword itself? And in either case, could it be altered to do subsequent Venom damage based on the user's Discipline instead of Fists or Weapons? (Concept: A magic-based poison that stops working after the scene, leaving the victim alive)

I've just realized this is why I don't like Sanctaphrax's solution to your previous question about transformation. How much would it cost to add a stunt using that cost base? The same amount as it does to maneuver... That doesn't seem equal to me.

To actually answer your question though I would see that as an attempt to take the power or stunt without actually paying for it. Consider the fact that enchanted items can be used multiple times per scene for only one mental stress per use beyond the first, and that's if the caster hasn't devoted some shifts to additional uses. Considering that could essentially grant you the use of that power/stunt for the majority of every scene, it seems really unbalanced. If you want the power/stunt then take it, pay the refresh, and justify it as an aspect of your magic.

To be honest I don't like the idea of using a magic ritual to gain powers that you aren't paying refresh for. I'll tolerate it as a one-time solution to an unusual problem, but I don't like that kind of thing to be over used. To me making an enchanted item devoted to that is telling me that you will use it at least once per session if not much more. I don't like that.

I guess it's more of a personal issue though. Results with your table may be different.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 10:42:23 PM by sinker »

Offline Belial666

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Re: Noob Questions
« Reply #143 on: October 08, 2011, 10:28:58 PM »
Quote
it reads more like one's sense of self
Yep, that's a mental attack. OTOH, someone with magic can just flat out make a barbed wire of magic and entangle your spirit with it rather than your body or make a big black blade and spiritually eviscerate you then eat whatever is left of your soul. Those are the other half of the attacks that deal mental stress and are the spiritual rather than mental attacks. And those are the absolutely worst things one can do to you, almost exclusively the purview of Kemmlerian Necromancy and Outsider Sponsored Magic.

I.e. the Stygian Sisters tear off pieces of their own souls then replace them with pieces torn off various victims in order to gain immortality through soul-mutilation. Sound familiar?

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Noob Questions
« Reply #144 on: October 09, 2011, 02:49:30 AM »
@sinker:

I do not think that a stunt should cost the same amount as an aspect. I have no idea how you got the idea that I think that.

EDIT: To clarify: giving yourself a -1 power costs a FP. The same would apply for a stunt. Maneuvering has no such cost attached, which is rather important. That being said, 3 complexity per point is pretty cheap. It's meant to be, because the FP cost is so much more important than the complexity.

@computerking:

I'm not sure I'd even allow magic to add stunts at all. Powers, fine. Stunts, no.

But you gotta pay FP for them if they are allowed.

I don't think that an enchanted item granting a power or a stunt is terribly practical, really. You'd need a lot of power and a lot of FP. Plus, they might well take too long to work. GM fiat situation there.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 02:53:51 AM by Sanctaphrax »

Offline computerking

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Re: Noob Questions
« Reply #145 on: October 09, 2011, 04:46:12 AM »
To actually answer your question though I would see that as an attempt to take the power or stunt without actually paying for it. Consider the fact that enchanted items can be used multiple times per scene for only one mental stress per use beyond the first, and that's if the caster hasn't devoted some shifts to additional uses. Considering that could essentially grant you the use of that power/stunt for the majority of every scene, it seems really unbalanced. If you want the power/stunt then take it, pay the refresh, and justify it as an aspect of your magic.

To be honest I don't like the idea of using a magic ritual to gain powers that you aren't paying refresh for.
EDIT: To clarify: giving yourself a -1 power costs a FP. The same would apply for a stunt. Maneuvering has no such cost attached, which is rather important. That being said, 3 complexity per point is pretty cheap. It's meant to be, because the FP cost is so much more important than the complexity.

@computerking:

I'm not sure I'd even allow magic to add stunts at all. Powers, fine. Stunts, no.

But you gotta pay FP for them if they are allowed.

I don't think that an enchanted item granting a power or a stunt is terribly practical, really. You'd need a lot of power and a lot of FP. Plus, they might well take too long to work. GM fiat situation there.

OK. Let me try to come up with a compelling argument through examples.

Example 1: The Sword of the Cross, an Item of Power grants its user True Aim.
Quote
True Aim. When  swung  in  keeping  with  its purpose, a Sword of the Cross grants a +1 to the wielder’s Weapons skill.

Despite its Power-based origins, this is basically a Stunt. It sets the precedent of a "power" granting a Stunt. (Note, I will call back to this example later)

Example 2: The Shape-shifting power Mimic Abilities has a power Trapping called Mimic Stunt:
Quote
Mimic Stunt. You are able to clone any of your target’s mortal stunts. You must clone these abilities by temporarily paying for them out of your mimic points (above).
Another incidence of a power granting a Stunt. It's a trapping of another power, yes, but no FP is needed to use the granted/copied stunt, because using that stunt is a part of that power. If a power was conceived that consisted of only Mimic Stunt, would its cost be lowered to (Mimic Points) minus 1? What if it could only be used once, and could not be changed?
(Another argument might come from the fact that this trapping does not specifically state that you need to meet the requirements of Eat Power to do it, but that's another argument for another day)

Example 3: There has been much talk about Ectomancy lately, in the wake of Ghost Story.
(click to show/hide)
Just putting in another possible power that has the potential to grant Stunts

Example 4: Channeling, Ritual, Evocation and Thaumaturgy all cost Refresh, and part of their trappings include 2 Focus Item Slots, which can be changed into 4 Enchanted item slots. Likewise, Refinement can be chosen to grant 2 Focus Item slots. I put forth that because these slots are part of a power, and that power is paid for with refresh, than those slots are already paid for with refresh. So an effect of an Enchanted Item is already covered, cost-wise, by sacrificing the ability to further enhance your spellcasting, and instead choosing to have a single repeatable effect in an enchanted item.

Example 5: An Item of Power (See, I told you I would call back to these) grants one or multiple ongoing powers for a small discount in an unbreakable object that can be transferred to another for 1 FP per scene for all of its powers.
An Enchanted Item grants one effect for a limited number of uses, in a breakable object that cannot be transferred to another without reducing its power at the time of its creation. If this were an Item of Power derivative power, how huge would that discount be?

To sum up, There is the potential for Stunt granting in many powers, Stunts are inherently less powerful than powers, and are also inherently easier to come across in characters (Even Pure mortals can have them). To forbid an enchanted Item, which can potentially be made to cast any Evocation or Thaumaturgy spell, from granting something so mundane as a stunt is a little heavy-handed on the ban stick, in my opinion.

And sometimes I believe the imposition of a Fate Point per use cost for magically granted powers may be a bit egregious as well. You could transform yourself into a Troll, for example, but couldn't lift a fat kid without spending at least 3 Fate Points every time, Or every scene (Huge size and Inhuman Strength)? Sometimes it seems that a well-prepared wizard couldn't be a force to be reckoned with in the games you guys run.

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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Noob Questions
« Reply #146 on: October 09, 2011, 05:54:59 AM »
Heh.

You should talk to Belial, who runs a spellcaster in a game I run. He's pretty much stomped everything in his path so far.

The FP cost of a temporary power is payed once, when you get the power. Check out the sidebar on page 92 of YS.

Now, I'm not opposed to the idea of stunts being granted with magic on religious grounds or anything. I just think it's a bit weird and hard to justify thematically, and so probably not worth the effort involved. I also worry that doing this would let wizards use magic to solve social and mental problems easily, which magic is normally just not much good for.

As for your examples...none of them are any good. Sorry.

Powers can resemble stunts. In some edge cases, they can even let you use some stunts. But in every case, you get what you pay for. You spend a point of refresh to buy the mimic point, form point, or point of IoP quality; then you use that point to buy the stunt. In no case can you add refresh to your character.

That is what spellcasting would do if you allowed Enchanted Items to grant powers and stunts freely. This is bad, and cannot be allowed.

So the FP tax is necessary.

Your argument that you've already payed for it with the cost of the enchanted item is bad, for a couple of reasons.

The main one is that an enchanted item is worth one quarter of one refresh. That's much cheaper than any power it could ever grant.

Plus, Enchanted Items are less restricted the Items Of Power. They can be loaned for a smaller cost (1 shift of effect rather than a FP each scene) and they can easily be replaced. Also, they actually don't have limited numbers of uses. And they almost never have weird thematic restrictions on their use.

What's more, anything an Enchanted Item can do can be done with Thaumaturgy. And any complexity of effect that an Enchanted Item can manage is within range of a thaumaturge's base complexity. So you don't actually have to spend refresh on the effects of enchanted items.

Offline sinker

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Re: Noob Questions
« Reply #147 on: October 09, 2011, 06:06:51 AM »
Firstly spellcaster's are ridiculously powerful without the ability to grant themselves all of the other powers in the book as well. Consider that many other templates spend just as much or more refresh just to have the same (maybe a little less) damage output with none of the flexibility whatsoever.

To be flat honest with you a lot of my opinion is based on conversations I have had over the last year with people like Iago, Sanctaphrax, Devonapple, and others.

One of the things that has become clear to me in this experience is that you shouldn't have powers you didn't pay for. With "Item of power" you are still paying for that stunt or power (with a slight discount for it not being constantly reliable), With "mimic stunt" you are paying for the ability to gain a stunt, but you are still paying for that stunt. Read the cost of mimic abilities, you spend one refresh for every potential stunt you could mimic. With temporary powers you are still paying FP. You can't gain a stunt or power that you didn't first pay something for.

The last thing that I have a hard time refuting is that a thaumaturgic spell should be able to grant powers (and stunts) via the temporary powers sidebar on YS92, however I would point out that repeatedly the sidebar states that this should happen under rare circumstances. If any mage can make an enchanted item that gives them a power or stunt every session I'd hardly qualify that as rare.

Additionally (and this is where my rules-lawyer comes out) if you want to be strictly RAW the sidebar states that people can gain supernatural powers temporarily. It says absolutely nothing about stunts. So if you want to gain temporary access to the Mimic abilities power and then eat someone to gain their stunt, then by all means, lawbreaker.

Also as an aside, Sanctaphrax I know that a maneuver and a 1 point-cost temporary power don't cost exactly the same, I just don't like that they are the same shift cost when one grants you the use of a power for a scene (or at least that's what the temporary powers sidebar says) and the other grants you a potential +2 once (or twice if you spend that one FP that you would have spent on the power). They just don't seem to have an input to output ratio that is balanced against the other.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 06:16:41 AM by sinker »

Offline computerking

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Re: Noob Questions
« Reply #148 on: October 09, 2011, 01:11:53 PM »
OK, a Fate Point just once when gaining the power isn't too bad, I'm wondering where I got the FP per scene/use idea in my head from. And I understand that some powers can seem like stunts (I believe this was Sanctaphrax's attempt to shoot down my example of Items of Power), but if that is the case, why can't an EI create an effect that seems like a stunt?

Taking the Enchanted Item out of the equation, lets look at it from a Thaumaturgical perspective.
I would be hard-pressed to justify how a wizard can take a cup of pigeon blood, peregrine falcon feathers, and a piece of cloth from the wings of the Wright brothers' first plane and make a spell that grants Wings, but he can't take a pint of blood from an Emissary of Ares, a sliver of Damascus Steel, and Left hand prints from 5 ambidextrous people and make a spell that grants Off-Hand "training".

But I defer to your interpretations, and won't push it any further.

But as a note to Sinker, There are those who believe wizards are and should be ridiculously powerful. They play Jenga with the building blocks of the Universe. Not in some limited, single-use way, but any way they see fit. I mean, they cut the heads off of warlocks for a reason...
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 01:15:15 PM by computerking »
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Noob Questions
« Reply #149 on: October 09, 2011, 08:00:31 PM »
Hm, that's a good ritual idea for the two-weapon fighting thing.

I suppose I'd probably allow it.

Like I said, I don't oppose the idea on principle. I just feel it's a bit weird for magic to be granting mundane skill.

Plus, the free creation and universal applicability of stunts makes them a bit tough to make fair in these situations.

See, a wizard granting 3 stunts could make someone into a master of social combat. 1 stunt to allow social attacks with their best skill, 1 to allow social defense with their best skill, 1 to give +2 to that skill in social combat under X scenario.

That's what worries me.

PS: Wizards should indeed be scarily powerful. But not because they get more for their refresh than others. It should be because they have a lot of refresh. Your average guy has ~6 refresh after the pure mortal bonus and ~15 skill points with a cap of Good. Your average wizard has 10 refresh and 35 skill points with a cap of Superb. See what I'm getting at here?
PPS: 3 x Refresh Cost is an intentionally low figure. If you want the complexity to be more important than the FP spending, by all means raise it.