McAnally's (The Community Pub) > Author Craft
Interesting post about culture-specific story shapes.
Figging Mint:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 07, 2011, 06:00:51 PM ---I'm not arguing lack of need for a DaVinci Code, so much as, if you want to do Templars and secret histories, DaVinci Code is not the only option worth pursuing.
--- End quote ---
What would be a suitable argument for a priori preferment of non-HJ approaches, in your opinion?
Preferably "suitable" includes "avoids the reefs of elitism".
I do not believe FP would have done reasonably well in terms of sales if it hadn't been for TNOTR's coattails.
LizW65:
Interesting article, bearing in mind that many (most?) of the tropes invoked are not American/Hollywood in origin. Superheroes, for instance, have their roots in characters such as Heracles and Beowulf, and the Hero's Journey dates from the earliest recorded stories.
As for the writer's wish for more passive protagonists who are content simply to let things happen to them and not take charge of their own stories, this can be done really well (American Gods comes to mind) or horribly (Twilight?) but in any case it's apt to be a tough sell in today's climate, where conflict, conflict, conflict is the rule.
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: (FM) on September 07, 2011, 06:12:08 PM ---What would be a suitable argument for a priori preferment of non-HJ approaches, in your opinion?
--- End quote ---
That the Hero's Journey has been done to death, and that there is an audience for innovative stuff ?
That as a writer one learns more from trying new stuff than from recycling familiar story-shapes, and that learning stuff is a good thing for a writer ?
That if you do write a Hero's Journey, it's going to be kind of hard to stand out from the large numbers of other Hero's Journeys on the shelves ?
--- Quote ---Preferably "suitable" includes "avoids the reefs of elitism".
--- End quote ---
I'm not willing to work on a basis that denies the existence of quality altogether.
--- Quote ---I do not believe FP would have done reasonably well in terms of sales if it hadn't been for TNOTR's coattails.
--- End quote ---
Perhaps, but NotR's central characters are not exactly following a Hero's Journey model either. Nor indeed doing many of the other things the post I linked to objects to.
TheWinterEmissary:
Speaking as an American living in Los Angeles, I have to ask: People place that much importance on Hollywood movies? Really??
In all seriousness, these are flimsy diversions meant as entertainment with a major emphasis on entertaining. There is little effort made for accuracy, seriousness, or much else that the author appears to be looking for.
I did appreciate most of this paragraph (though I still have issues with the end of it):
"And before you ask, yes, I know those are tropes, and I know that not *all* US books/movies/series follow them, just like not all French books feature, say, bumbling bosses or people going on strike–and that not all groups or minorities in the US agree with those tropes. I’m just commenting on something that, for good or evil, the US has managed to export abroad (thank you, Hollywood) and therefore is the perception of US storytelling from my window, and the window of a great deal many people in the world".
But I think that the author should have kept it much more in mind for the rest of the article than they did. Some U.S. companies export, some of them prove successful, but it doesn't make those successes representative of anything more than monetary gains for the one, or few, companies doing each of those incidences of exporting. Also, if ten, twenty or thirty million Americans watch a movie then that means that hundreds of millions of Americans don't. And there's no guarantee that those who did watch whatever movie is in question enjoyed it, agreed with it, or took it at all seriously.
Let's take a look at the argument from the reverse. Many other countries manage to effectively export little culturally here, would the author really argue that American audiences should base their perceptions on those few messages that get through in our popular culture? We hear that the Irish like green, potatoes and Leprechauns. That Italians like or put up with leather, pasta and gangsters. Should the US population really accept that that is all that there is to those countries and then judge their populations on it? How would denizens of those nations appreciate posts like the following, based on the cultural messages that get through? I would say they wouldn't, but that seems to be the argument that the author is applying to the US. Here's an example,
"Dear Irish, it seems that you like the color green too much. There are many other colors and your fixation on green strikes us as unhealthy. Have you thought of giving others colors a chance"?
Sincerely, The Concerned Citizens of the U.S.A.
The above just seems nonsensical.
Further, it's hard to take seriously anyone who would make assumptions about US racism from movies. The US is a big place and what goes on in one State, in some key ways, often has little bearing on another. England and Italy are both European, but could observers rightfully claim that they are essentially synonymous and representative of each other?
Ultimately, Hollywood movies are mostly trivial entertainments with little basis in reality. For example, Los Angeles County and it's surrounding area, which contains Hollywood, has large concentrations of many ex-patriate groups, such as Armenians, Persians, Koreans, and Vietnamese. How often do you see that mentioned in Hollywood movies, especially in movies dealing with "race"? Those movies tend to focus on "blacks" and "whites" but don't even include the large numbers of "blacks" who moved in their lifetimes from Africa or the Caribbean, or "whites" who came from Australia, Canada, England, etc. Much less the many, many, many groups from all over Central & South America, Europe, Asia, etc. Obviously people have the right to view the US as they like, but imo the greater fault here lies with those who take these movies much more seriously than they deserve.
TheWinterEmissary:
I also have to disagree with the assessment of the Long Price Quartet as excellent. Obviously such assignations are ultimately only a personal determination, but ime there is something approximating a 50/50 split between those who are impressed by it and those who are not.
I only ever read the first book, but while I would agree that the prose was indeed lovely, imo that is not always a good thing. I prefer to immerse myself in the tale being told, and oftentimes find that if the writing is too noticeable then it can be too much of a distraction from the other elements of the story for my tastes.
Otherwise, there isn't much about the book that would give me reason to recommend it. The plot, at it's most basic, was intriguing and I found the same with a few details of the culture as well. But all in all, I found the characters quite insubstantial and shallow in terms of their development and the story itself to be bare bones and not terribly interesting. More than anything, it reminded me of a Young Adult book that was written well. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but for me that is a far cry from "excellence". It was a book that I really wanted to like, but unfortunately for me that wasn't the case.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version