The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
[Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders
AcornArmy:
--- Quote from: svb1972 on August 29, 2011, 09:56:37 PM ---Maggie LaFey died in 1972.
We know this, because 1972 is Harry and Jim's (and mine) birth year.
--- End quote ---
But Jim has said before that Harry is about one year behind him in age, and GS is probably stretching that gap out more. It may be 1973, which is my birth year. ;D
svb1972:
--- Quote from: AcornArmy on August 29, 2011, 10:17:41 PM ---But Jim has said before that Harry is about one year behind him in age, and GS is probably stretching that gap out more. It may be 1973, which is my birth year. ;D
--- End quote ---
Get your dirty 1973 paws off my Harry! MIne mine!..
uh.. sorry.. I just had a Mollyment.
Maggie Sr's Minimum age is 162 years old, when Harry was born. Probably about 7 years before that when Thomas was born. Those with more amazing memory can probably tell us how old Thomas was when she left? I seem to remember it was about 5, but I'm not sure.
Winter Warden:
--- Quote from: AcornArmy on August 29, 2011, 09:33:10 PM ---So, if we assume 1810 as the last year Maggie LeFay could have been born, and sometime around 1970 or so as the year she died, then Maggie LeFay was, at minimum, 160 years old at the time of her death. She could've been as much as 80 or 90 years older than that, but she couldn't have been any younger.
--- End quote ---
Huh. Thanks. That`s interesting. In fact, the quote reveals that Maggie must have been born considerably before 1810, as the French-Indian War went from 1754-1763 (and really it was all over by 1760 in North America). If Jim wanted to write Maggie`s mother into this war, she must be at least, say, 20 by the time the war`s essentially over in 1760, or else she would struggle to play a significant role in the story. Theoretically, she might have had Maggie as late as when she was 50 years old (1790 at the latest), although this would be very uncommon in this time period. Generally, women had children in their 20`s or 30`s (or earlier) making a far more likely birth age for Maggie no later than about 1780. So, I would guess that Maggie was approaching 200 when she had Harry (which is really weird, but I guess that that`s wizards for you).
Of course, while interesting, Maggie`s age does not detract from my main interest in the timeline, which is that it seems that Maggie could only have been openly violating the Laws of Magic between some time soon after starting her relationship with Raith and when Thomas was born. As I stated, I am not sure when her relationship with Raith actually started, although I cannot imagine it lasted for a long time, but it seems curious that she would start openly breaking the Laws of Magic in this period. Regardless of what she was doing, I cannot imagine that she would benefit from having the White Council know about it, and it seems unlikely that it was just a mistake such as, for example, accidentally killing a mortal with a fire spell while panicked, as Eb specifically states that "she was guilty of violating the First Law, among others." You could accidentally violate one law, but accidentally violating multiple laws seems a bit of a stretch.
If we accept that Maggie would have no good reason to want the council to know that she was breaking the laws, then one wonders how the council found out. Did a wizard stumble upon her breaking the Laws of Magic by accident, was she placed under more intense scrutiny because of her association with Raith, or did she tip off Eb that something was going on at that dinner, which he then investigated, revealing the truth? To me, this period with Raith before Thomas was born seems to be the key to understanding Maggie, so it's too bad we can't do any more than speculate about what was going on at the time. :(
AcornArmy:
--- Quote from: Winter Warden on August 30, 2011, 12:31:54 AM ---To me, this period with Raith before Thomas was born seems to be the key to understanding Maggie, so it's too bad we can't do any more than speculate about what was going on at the time. :(
--- End quote ---
Well, we know that Raith had some control over her, even though he never managed to control her completely. He may have had a detrimental effect on her judgement. Or, just as likely, something involving messing around with Outsiders caused her to become more reckless and violent. Of course, that last one is contingent upon whether or not you think Maggie was part of the group that originally started summoning Outsiders back onto the Earthly plane, or into the Nevernever near Earth.
Some people have mentioned that they can see Maggie being a part of the group, but not founding it. To that, I would ask how they think Outsiders started coming back into the universe, if the Gatekeeper is Gatekeeping properly. Neither the White Council nor the Senior Council have made any accusations toward Rashid that we've heard about, and yet, Outsiders have fought beside Red Court vampires multiple times. They've been getting in somehow, but the Gatekeeper remains at his post as usual. So, it seems to me that the Senior Council must think the Outsiders are somehow getting around the Gatekeeper, rather than coming in with his help.
And if you accept that the Outer Gates are probably thin points between Earth's universe and the Outside, or the Nevernever and the Outside, then someone must have found a thin spot that the Gatekeeper wasn't guarding. Enter Maggie LeFay, who could apparently hunt down a path from almost anywhere to almost anywhere else. She just seems like the most obvious candidate for that type of thing.
When you add in the fact that she was attached to Lord Raith, that she was friends with Justin DuMorne, and that both Raith and DuMorne called on He Who Walks Behind-- it seems like an obvious next step that Maggie must have been the one to find an undiscovered Outer Gate. And if her personality was anything like Harry's or Ebenezer's, then she was probably one of the more powerful personalities in the group, even if she was somewhat under Lord Raith's control.
The descriptions of Maggie make her seem more formidable than DuMorne, and she would obviously know more about magic than Raith. Formidable + knowledgeable + a powerful personality = someone likely in charge, or near the top of the hierarchy, imho.
The Mighty Buzzard:
--- Quote from: LordDresden on August 29, 2011, 06:08:20 PM ---Not in the DV. They are real things with real consequences, esp. when magic gets mixed in.
If Margaret was breaking the Laws of Magic on any regular basis, there would be consequences to her soul. It can take various forms, from the Korean kid to Kemmler to Justin or Victor Sells. But a misguided idealist who starts regularly breaking the Laws won't stay a misguided idealist. She'll turn into one or another sort of monster.
--- End quote ---
Everything they do on a daily basis has consequences on their souls. Doesn't make it a fact rather than an opinion. At most it's the opinion of TWG. Which, while pretty weighty, does not make it fact.
As to turning into a monster, I think Inez already covered that for me.
--- Quote from: LordDresden on August 29, 2011, 06:08:20 PM ---This is why Luccio's account doesn't make sense, and why Ebenezar's does.
Remember, if Luccio is right, then there's no reason Margaret couldn't have turned to Ebenezar and the White Council for help and protection when she was on the run from Lord Raith. She's pregnant, married to a mortal, and running from the White Court. If she was just misguided, then she could go the Wardens for help, and she could pay for that help, too.
She would be a gold mine of intel about the White Court, after all. That alone would be a good enough reason to protect Margaret from Raith.
But if she was a warlock, guilty of multiple major crimes, then her failure to turn to the Council for help makes perfect sense. But that makes Luccio's account wrong.
--- End quote ---
Or, an alternate way of looking at is they were both giving accounts from different points in Margaret's life. If Eb's account is true then both likely were. Or Eb may have known quite a bit more about her towards the end what with being her father and the blackstaff both. Or Luccio may have been giving her the benefit of the doubt seeing as there hadn't been a hearing yet while Eb wasn't. Or it may have been the old "multiple eye-witnesses with no two accounts matching" syndrome.
Too many or's to say for sure at this point I think.
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