The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
[Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: Duke Blue on August 29, 2011, 04:07:55 PM ---I think you are on to something here but I think you are starting from the wrong place. Maggie was involved in some sort of plan with bad types but I don't think she knew about the outsiders angle until later.
--- End quote ---
I'm not seeing evidence for that position.
I would note that the only people not provably linked to the Maggie/Justin/Lord R cabal who demonstrates working knowledge of Outside power are Cowl and Peabody. (Unless you count Ivy with mordite in DM, and she does not need a direct link to be aware of that information, they just have to have written it down or formally taught it at some point.) The Cowl ==Simon hypothesis ties all of them up in one neat bundle.
I'd also note that the Reds' sorcerous auxiliaries use Outsiders more than once in DB and PG. possibly that's entirely new, but it says to me that the Reds aren't reluctant to think of Outsiders as tools.
Both of those feel to me suggestive of a larger scheme going further back.
--- Quote --- The start of this plan probably has to do with the meeting that Eb mentions at the end of Changes where Maggie invited him to a dinner to discuss a plan and then Lord Raith and Arianna were both there. Eb specifically says that Maggie was pitching a plan to him which he didn't want anything to do with. What was that plan? Both White Court Vampires and Red Court Vampires can live without actually killing humans so they might seem like decent groups to try to make a deal with against more dangerous supernatural types.
--- End quote ---
I'd find that easier to believe if the apparent workings out of that plan had not exterminated the Reds and done very serious damage to the White Court.
Duke Blue:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on August 29, 2011, 04:51:01 PM ---I'm not seeing evidence for that position.
I would note that the only people not provably linked to the Maggie/Justin/Lord R cabal who demonstrates working knowledge of Outside power are Cowl and Peabody. (Unless you count Ivy with mordite in DM, and she does not need a direct link to be aware of that information, they just have to have written it down or formally taught it at some point.) The Cowl ==Simon hypothesis ties all of them up in one neat bundle.
I'd also note that the Reds' sorcerous auxiliaries use Outsiders more than once in DB and PG. possibly that's entirely new, but it says to me that the Reds aren't reluctant to think of Outsiders as tools.
Both of those feel to me suggestive of a larger scheme going further back.
I'd find that easier to believe if the apparent workings out of that plan had not exterminated the Reds and done very serious damage to the White Court.
--- End quote ---
I may not have been completely clear. I agree that there is some larger master scheme at work behind the scenes. What I was describing was how I believe that Maggie might have been duped into becoming involved in that larger scheme. Furthermore, I think Maggie figured out the full extent of what was going and that is what led to her to run away from Raith. The apparent expendability of the Red Court in Changes and the White Court in White Night just shows that Lord Raith and Ariana were being used as pawns too.
svb1972:
Maggie and the Outsiders sounds like a 60's Rock Band.
LordDresden:
--- Quote from: AcornArmy on August 29, 2011, 06:41:02 AM ---
The most important thing, though, is that Luccio's depiction of Maggie doesn't contradict any of that, it simply adds to it.
--- End quote ---
No, it blatantly contradicts it.
According to Ebenezar, Margaret was a warlock on the run from the Council, and under a literal death sentence.
According to Luccio, Margaret was a misguided idealist who the Wardens had been assigned to watch, and nothing more. No mention of her being a warlock, no mention of a death sentence from Luccio.
Further, Luccio comments that Margaret simply disappeared for 5 years or so with no explanation, and presumably was with LR and had Thomas in that time. Nothing about her being hunted afterward by the WCouncil and the WCourt at the same time. None.
And Harry, in that same conversation, doesn't even notice the contradiction. That's part of why I say that whole conversation is so weird. It portrays Margaret as being something totally different than every other reference we've seen. Either Luccio or Eb is lying, or else one of them is remembering events 100% out of synch with reality. Yet Harry doesn't even react to the contradiction in his own mind.
That's why I call that conversation 'weird'.
--- Quote ---
Ebenezer himself told Harry that Maggie called him to Lord Raith's place for dinner and suggested an idea to him, an idea that he didn't want any part of, and that he thought she shouldn't want any part of, either. He said that this occurred shortly after Maggie had taken up with "that Raith bastard." So whenever Maggie's Lawbreaking occurred, it was after the scheme had been thought of and begun. Ebenezer was almost certainly not under orders to kill her at that time, or it seems doubtful that Maggie would have invited him to dinner with Lord Raith and Duchess Arianna.
--- End quote ---
No, but Luccio didn't mention her becoming a warlock or under death sentence at all. She made Margaret sound like a misguided idealist, not evil. Every other account, every single other account, implies evil.
Not that Chaunzoggorth said that Hell expected to get her soul, but she found redemption just before the end. I didn't remember this last night, but that version also tallies with what Lea told Harry in Grave Peril. Lea said that Harry's self-sacrficing, noble choices reminded him of his mother...at the end of her life. After she changed paths.
The problem is not just that we have conflicting versions. It's that we have a fairly consistant set of versions, set against one strange and conflicting one from Luccio.
--- Quote ---
And as I suggested in the OP-- well, if the group found themselves with access to a Gate to the Outside, what would they have done about it? Research on Outsiders was a beheading offense, so it's not like they could ask around within the White Council. They couldn't just start trying to summon Outsiders without any clue as to how to do it, because they weren't
It seems to me that Luccio's description gives us insight into why Maggie did the things she did and where she came from, while the others give us insight into the kinds of things she was eventually willing to do to achieve her goals. I was never suggesting that Maggie was pure as the driven snow, or even that she was just misunderstood. I'm sure she did some ugly things, once she came up with her plan and started putting it in motion. But from the example of the dinner Ebenezer had with her, the darker period of her life probably took place near the end, after she hooked up with Raith.
--- End quote ---
You can't just do 'ugly things' with magic and not have it change you. That's why using black magic for good purposes doesn't work, or not for long, you lose the good purposes and it rarely takes very long.
Further, the accounts other than Luccio's say that the dark period of her life came first, then, at the very end, came something better.
--- Quote ---
All the sources agree, though, that she eventually turned away from her allies and left them. She eventually came to her senses, and realized that what she had intended to achieve was not what was actually happening. That's pretty much what it sounds like from all of the various sources. She may have been misguided and short-sighted, but she wasn't evil. Which fits perfectly with how Luccio described her.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, but every version other than Luccio's does suggest evil. You have to take a really improbable interpretation of the others to make them even half-fit with Luccio's account, and Eb's account is totally incompatiable with Luccio's.
LordDresden:
--- Quote from: The Mighty Buzzard on August 29, 2011, 09:49:51 AM ---Misguided but Well-Intentioned Idealist (n) - see villain. see also hero.
We'll be entering an election year here in the US soon and I fully expect that both parties will paint the other as villains. And they're both right. And they're both wrong. Good and evil are opinions.
--- End quote ---
Not in the DV. They are real things with real consequences, esp. when magic gets mixed in.
If Margaret was breaking the Laws of Magic on any regular basis, there would be consequences to her soul. It can take various forms, from the Korean kid to Kemmler to Justin or Victor Sells. But a misguided idealist who starts regularly breaking the Laws won't stay a misguided idealist. She'll turn into one or another sort of monster.
This is why Luccio's account doesn't make sense, and why Ebenezar's does.
Remember, if Luccio is right, then there's no reason Margaret couldn't have turned to Ebenezar and the White Council for help and protection when she was on the run from Lord Raith. She's pregnant, married to a mortal, and running from the White Court. If she was just misguided, then she could go the Wardens for help, and she could pay for that help, too.
She would be a gold mine of intel about the White Court, after all. That alone would be a good enough reason to protect Margaret from Raith.
But if she was a warlock, guilty of multiple major crimes, then her failure to turn to the Council for help makes perfect sense. But that makes Luccio's account wrong.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version