The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection

[GS Spoilers] Uriel's long game? FM, DB, Ch, and GS (WIP)

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Beefstew:

--- Quote ---Was the first eight-word whisper Uriel or a Fallen?
--- End quote ---

Based on a fairly bold assumption that anything that Harry thinks to himself and uses his name is a whisper from an angelic or demonic entity.  I very much doubt that.  The balance allows people to make a free choice, unbiased by either side.  To doubt that would be to doubt the entire purpose of the White God.  He's all about the free will.  That's why I doubt Uriel is lying about balance.  And if Uriel had whispered 8 words, doesn't that mean the other side has 8 free words?  And wouldn't that mean that the confirmed demonic whisper was actually restoring the balance?

I think the 8 words you're referring to are a pretty natural thought process when seen in context.  He's wondering why he isn't getting saved by some mysterious force.  Then he realized that no one is coming to save him.  Lots of people, especially when they're trying to motivate themselves, think or say their own name.  I think Harry does it a couple of times, but I don't know for sure.

Other then that, it's a fairly solid theory.  I'm just not sold on the idea of Uriel lying, or that we've been seeing multiple demonic/angelic whispers throughout the series, and Uriel hasn't mentioned anything before, or now.

Jim is sneaky enough to do that though, so who knows.

Jared:

--- Quote from: Beefstew on August 04, 2011, 11:20:22 PM ---Based on a fairly bold assumption that anything that Harry thinks to himself and uses his name is a whisper from an angelic or demonic entity.  I very much doubt that.
--- End quote ---

Well, as I quoted, Harry died because of the death curse and the death curse occurred because of a thought that was similar in structure to the one in the church. In the GS scene, when he tells Uriel what happened, he says “I remember saying to myself that it was all over. And it was all your fault, Harry.” So at least one thought that ended with ", Harry." was an angelic/demonic whisper. Doesn't mean this one was, but it's not impossible and I think it makes sense.



--- Quote from: Beefstew on August 04, 2011, 11:20:22 PM ---I think the 8 words you're referring to are a pretty natural thought process when seen in context.  He's wondering why he isn't getting saved by some mysterious force.  Then he realized that no one is coming to save him.  Lots of people, especially when they're trying to motivate themselves, think or say their own name.  I think Harry does it a couple of times, but I don't know for sure.
--- End quote ---

I'll have to go look, as well. I don't remember that.



--- Quote from: Beefstew on August 04, 2011, 11:20:22 PM ---Other then that, it's a fairly solid theory.
--- End quote ---

Thanks.



--- Quote from: Beefstew on August 04, 2011, 11:20:22 PM ---I'm just not sold on the idea of Uriel lying, or that we've been seeing multiple demonic/angelic whispers throughout the series, and Uriel hasn't mentioned anything before, or now.
--- End quote ---

The best thing about this "no one is coming" whisper is that it's not a lie. Michael was not being sent.

Edit: Mouse and Butters did run back in, but whenever Harry talked about that night with the other people, he made it sound like he was talking just about Camp White God.

Hopefire:
Regarding what happened back in Dead Beat though, I think that if it were anyone thinking the thought other than Harry, it was just Lash telling Harry that no one was coming. My suspicion is that Lash intended to let Harry suffer a little, recognizing that he wasn't going to grab the coin quite yet, but that he would be more likely to grab it after the disemboweling got going, with no one arriving to help him. What occurred after wasn't to her plan.



I found another interesting one, way back in chapter eighteen of Small Favor. It was during the War Council with Harry, Molly, Murphy and Thomas.


--- Quote ---"Nothing's ever convenient with you, Dresden," Murphy said.

"Exactly my point." I rubbed my jaw. I needed to shave, but my throbbing nose was bad enough without adding a couple of razor nicks to the mess. I didn't trust my hands to be steady. There were too many scary things moving around, and if I stopped long enough to think about how far in  over my head I was getting, I might just crawl into a hole and pull it in ever me.

Don't think, Harry. You know too much about what you're up against.

Analyze, decide, and act.
--- End quote ---

The italics are in the original text. After hearing/thinking those words, Harry shifts gears, regains his mojo, and starts effectively planning. If, as the OP essentially suggests, these italicized sections where Harry refers to himself by name are foreign entities influencing him, it's one sneaky long game that Jim Butcher is playing with us.

Again though: I think that this was Lash. Not yet strong enough to make herself clearly heard by Harry under most circumstances, still reforming herself, I think that she might well have sent out some bolstering advice to get Harry back on track when he needed it.

Kuvasza:
I love what you've done, but I would concur with Beefstew that sometimes Harry talking to himself is just Harry talking to himself.  As he and Uriel agreed in GS, the shadow's whisper was effective because it fit into a pattern of behavior: Harry blaming himself, railing against his own limitations until some idea comes to him.

I personally want to know whether every wizard out there has their own version of id-Harry in their mind or whether it's just that Harry is nuts.

AcornArmy:
This whole line of reasoning was awesome, but I have to agree with Beefstew and Kuvasza that Harry talks to himself a lot, and most of the time, it's bound to just be Harry, talking to himself. On the other hand, Hopefire may also be right, and Lash may be responsible for some of the Harry-thoughts after White Night. I had a similar train of thought recently, because it seems like, in recent books, Harry is doing a lot more thinking to himself and answering. Of course, in GS, he's dead, which raises questions of how Lash would be able to talk to his soul while it was away from his body-- but, honestly, I'd bet she could manage it if she really wanted to.

The main problem with the idea that Uriel was behind the eight words in Dead Beat is that it would open the door for one of the Fallen to insert their own eight words into Harry's head. If the eight words came from Lash, there's no imbalance at all, so Uriel's eight words in GS wouldn't act to balance those out.

Of course, Harry was doing something very rare for him in that scene. He was trying to exercise faith in a Higher Power, that Someone would send one of the Knights along to help him out, considering who Cassius was. That didn't happen, and Harry assumed that meant that no one had sent help of any kind. But that didn't mean that help wasn't actually sent; help could've come in the form of those eight words, or it could've come in the form of Butters, who showed up later. Butters might have been given a nudge to fortify his courage.

But if the help came in the form of those words, then there might not have been any imbalance at all. If someone asks for help from God or Whoever, and then an Archangel whispers in their ear-- is that outside the rules? Somehow, I doubt it is. The person is asking for intervention, the intervention isn't being thrust upon them.

At any rate, I don't see how there's a good route for Uriel to say the eight words to Harry in GS as a balance for the eight words in DB. My personal take on it was that the words in GS were something that Uriel was allowed to say, since it was already covered under "fortune cookie wisdom," and Harry was already familiar with them. Which doesn't mean they won't turn out to be useful. Harry might find himself in dire straits one day, think back on that sentence, and laugh, because it lets him figure out how to solve his problem.

On the underlying theme of the OP, though, the idea that Uriel may have directly or indirectly led to Cassius' death curse, I think it's certainly possible that Uriel helped it along, indirectly. I don't think Uriel directly performs malicious acts, but I do think he's willing to foresee them and capitalize on them in some way down the line. And if Uriel needed Harry to be the Winter Knight, and if he thought the only way for Harry to be the Winter Knight and remain himself was to die and learn some useful stuff, then I think Uriel would help that sequence of events happen. He wouldn't do it by harming anyone himself, but I think he'd make use of the harm that others had done and turn it to his own ends.

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