Delayed Spells

[ARedthorn]

So, I remember there being a spell in Death Masks that took a while to hit- snakes crawling after harry. Now, it could've been a conjuration, and that was just the snakes crawling... but what about a creeping fog, or slow moving spell that operates more like evocation otherwise?

It came up recently in a game, and my off-the-cuff, 'we can't find anything quickly in the book, and don't want to waste time figuring it out' ruling was to give the spell an extra 2 shifts of effect, to balance out the fact that the players had a round to run away, counter it, take cover, or put some nifty defensive aspect on themselves with a maneuver.

Later I got the chance to think about it, and realized that over 2 rounds, the caster (power 6, control 7), could've put 2 aspects on himself with a maneuver for a -1 roll or better ("Charged up" and "Focused Mind" both for a single round), and then tagged them both on the next round for 4 extra shifts. It would've cost 2 stress instead of 1, and taken the caster's action for both rounds... whereas I had the caster use a  no-stress supplemental action on round 2 to maintain the spell, and he took the chance to run away.

I'm trying to use that as a litmus test to figure out if my off-the-cuff ruling was reasonable. For NPCs, it may not matter- just storytell and move on, but my players may be interested in trying something like this themselves at some point, and I'd rather have a well-thought out semi-hard ruling on it than another off-the-cuff guess that may or may not even line up with what I've used before...

While I was at it, I had this as a thought:
If the caster in question were to try to use a maneuver to place a single, one-round aspect on himself, he'd be a shoe-in. Even at a -4 to the roll, the worst possible, he'd roll the standard difficulty. If I were willing to allow him, off the cuff, to do a maneuver spell as a supplemental action at worst possible outcome, that would give him a 2 shift bonus, and free up his other action. He's still spending 2 stress instead of 1, but I still haven't accounted for the delay, and I could simply fold that stress reduction in as the benefit. This of course, depends on whether or not the idea of allowing a -4 discipline supplemental spell is kosher, and for that, I have another thread, but I'm also starting to see similar lines of logic... and in math at least, when you can solve a problem 3 different ways to the same result, it's generally safe to call it proven.


So... thoughts?

[UmbraLux]

So, I remember there being a spell in Death Masks that took a while to hit- snakes crawling after harry.

Was that a delayed spell or simply a zone wide maneuver invoked for effect?

If you are going to allow delayed spells, I'd use the Time Increments ladder to determine the cost.  Plus any thresholds it might have to follow someone through.

[ARedthorn]

I'd assume it was a delayed spell, given that snake-boy was fired it off and went about his business- sounds more like a single action than 2 (placing a maneuver and using it).
Using the ladder makes sense, aye- but in the evocation theatre, adding a delay in is a disadvantage not a boon... so I was looking for benefits, not costs. The fact that someone can use that round (or few) to dive behind a threshold could end up protecting them from the spell, or give them time to counter in some other way ought to have some advantage to balance it... I'm just not sure what.

[UmbraLux]

Flexibility is always an advantage. 

If every spell was delayed - well that would be a disadvantage worth something.  But not the choice.

[Sanctaphrax]

I agree with UmbraLux.

Sometimes a delayed spell will be a good thing. Not often, but sometimes. For example, if there's a really tough block in the way that will expire this turn.

PS: Wizards don't need more power, so you ought to be careful when houseruling with them.

[ARedthorn]

Well, my original question was this:

Was my in-the-moment call of granting the spell an extra 2 shifts in return for it taking longer to take effect a decent call as a GM? (note- in that particular instance, there was no advantage to it taking longer, it was just doing so because the spell effect was a creeping mist. The caster had already paid for it to be able to affect the whole zone, but had just described it that way.)

[UmbraLux]

Was my in-the-moment call of granting the spell an extra 2 shifts in return for it taking longer to take effect a decent call as a GM?

Did it irritate the players?  Any call, right or wrong, is good as long as it doesn't piss off the players and does keep the game moving.  You can always apologize for and correct the wrong ones post game. 

[ARedthorn]

No, they seemed to think it fair, and one of the players thinks they may use it at a later point, if it ever gets to be useful.

[devonapple]

but in the evocation theatre, adding a delay in is a disadvantage not a boon... so I was looking for benefits, not costs. The fact that someone can use that round (or few) to dive behind a threshold could end up protecting them from the spell, or give them time to counter in some other way ought to have some advantage to balance it... I'm just not sure what.

Adding in a delay is a benefit or a detriment, depending entirely on the situation.

If a caster can cast a Zonewide Evocation, run away, and have it take effect in a round or two, then other characters can make sure to drive enemies into that Zone and/or keep them there until it goes off.

If a caster has to sit there for several rounds to cast the same Evocation which another caster can cast in one exchange - like a powerup sequence - then it is definitely a detriment.

If that extra time is adding anything like damage or range, then it is an advantage. Especially with Evocation Attacks: most of those HAVE to be fire and forget... if you can just keep building shifts into an Attack spell until it's "time" then it can be an incredible advantage if tactically utilized.

[Sanctaphrax]

I wouldn't expect it to be a problem.

Game balance doesn't always matter.

After all, people play and presumably enjoy playing Sidereals in Exalted Second Edition.