The Dresden Files > GS Book Club
Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
LogicMouseLives:
--- Quote from: mjs4484 on July 30, 2011, 12:33:28 AM ---The way that I took it, when Mab snapped at Demonreach that Harry was hers to shape as she pleased, was that as long as Harry thought it was possible for her to do so, it WAS true. So Mab wasn't lying even though her statement was not empirically true.
ON another note, one thing that irked me was how, in Harry's remembering of the time Molly erased from his memory, Kincaid seemed not to remember that he had just heard from Harry several hours or a day or two ago. I have the audiobook so pinpointing the exact moment would take a while. Can anyone with the physical book provide the text for the phone calls from Changes and Ghost Story?
--- End quote ---
This was a small point that bugged me a little as well. Let's take a look, shall we?
--- Quote from: Changes pb pages 184-186 ---(Leaving out all the interstitial material for the sake of the beating my fingers are going to take today ;D)
"It's Kincaid."
"Dresden," I replied. "This line probably isn't clear."
"I know. What do you want?"
"I need to find a child. She was taken by the Red Court a few days ago. We believe her to be somewhere in Mexico."
"Somewhere in Mexico? You tried walking around and yelling her name really loud yet?"
"I'm getting there. Look, does she know anything or not?"
"Ivy says she can't get involved. That the business you're on is deadly. She dares not unbalance it for fear of changing the outcome."
"Goddammit, Kinkaid, she owes me one. Remind her who came and took her away from those fucking Denarian lunatics."
"Believe me, she remembers, Dresden. But she isn't free to share her knowledge like you or me. When she says she can't tell you, she's being literal. She physically cannot let such information leave her head."
"Tell her that this is information I must have. If she can't help me I'll be taking it up with other sources. The ones in my green notebook."
"She can't tell you where the girl is. But she says she can tell you someone who might."
"Any help would be greatly appreciated."
"She says to tell you that before you try the green book, there's something else you might consider. The last man you want to see might have useful information."
"Dammit. Dammit."
--- End quote ---
And then there's:
--- Quote from: Ghost Story HC pages 444-445 ---"Kincaid."
"It's Dresden."
"Harry. What's up?"
"You owe me a favor. For that thing with Ivy on the island."
"Damn right."
"I'm calling it in."
"Okay. You want some backup or something?"
"I have a target for you."
"Tell me."
"The new Winter Knight."
"There's a new one?"
"There's going to be."
"How do you... It's like that."
"There's a good reason."
"Yeah?"
"There's a little girl."
"You'll know it's coming."
"No. I won't. I'll see to it."
"Okay. When?"
"Anytime after noon tomorrow. The sooner the better."
"Okay."
"You can find me?"
"Yeah."
"Be sure."
"I pay my debts."
"Yeah. Thanks."
"Thanking me. That's new."
--- End quote ---
The only bit that's still a little jarring to me, looking at them like this, is in regards the line, "There's a little girl." Kincaid already knows that Harry's looking for a child, but Harry didn't tell him about his relationship to her in either conversation, Kincaid probably isn't badass enough in the research department to have figured it out before the second conversation, and it's quite possible that Ivy left him in the dark on the subject as well. So, yeah. It hangs together pretty solidly, I'd say.
LML
LogicMouseLives:
Boy, oh boy. So many other things to talk about. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Let's start with the whisperer.
Uriel's description of the perp is pretty damned clear: Not just an angel, not just one of the Fallen but, "A being who could know a mortal's entire life. Could know his dreams. His fears. His very thoughts. Such a being, so versed in human nature, in mortal patterns of thought, could reliably predict precisely how a given mortal would react to almost anything." (GS page 450)
There's only one such being who has been in the position to know Harry in particular that well. Lasciel's Shadow. To me the conclusion seems painfully clear and inescapable:
Neurovore was right.
Not only was Lash not 100% gone after the end of White Night, she was not 100% redeemed. I don't think it's a coincidence that we were introduced (rather forcefully) in this book to the possibility and consequences of a spiritual being splitting itself into pieces over a deep disagreement, as Bob did with NecroBob.
My hypothesis at this point is that while the majority of the entity known as Lash accepted Harry's gift of a name and a piece of his soul, and gave up her existence––or at least that part of her existence that was directly connected to his brain––to save him from Vitto Malvora, in doing it, she left behind a very small portion of herself that disagreed with the decision. It was too weak to carry any connection to the true Lasciel anymore, thus the loss of the mark and the Hellfire, but just strong enough to hang in there for years, waiting for the right moment to blow its wad in a last ditch attempt to wipe him off the face of the earth. (Whether in retribution for resisting her or to try and prevent him from playing the role for which he is needed in future events hardly matters.)
But that still leaves the question open: How was that cheating? Harry and Lasciel's Shadow spoke many times during her residency. She provided him with Hellfire, showed him tricks for escaping from dangerous situations, and generally interfered in his life a great deal, without any noticeable balancing efforts from the other side. So how is this one sentence different?
To try and answer that question, I think it would be useful to consider the previous episodes of the Shadow's actions that did draw balancing retaliation from Uriel and/or his crew. We have:
* Two instances of the Shadow appearing to Harry's conscious mind (as Sheila) before Harry had consciously accepted her offer of Hellfire. She points this out as being a dodge herself when he confronts her about it.
--- Quote from: DB pb page 336 ---"I told you that I could not make open contact with your conscious mind. That is why I created Sheila."
--- End quote ---
This action then, appears to have been balanced by Someone allowing Harry's dad (another member of Uriel's Between police, anyone?) to visit him and offer encouragement on two occasions in the same book.
Two unauthorised visits==two balancing, normally unauthorised visits. (in which Malcom spends a good bit of time harping on the same strings Uriel is so interested in: You have to make the choices, and you don't lose control of your life until you believe you've lost control of it.)
* Then there's Uriel giving Harry access to Soulfire. Whether that power is something that was self-contained within Harry or a connection with a redeemed but no longer communicative Lash, it surely represents a huge interference in the mortal world. Uriel implies that it's the response to Lucifer helping the Denarians with the power for the huge pentagrams.
Huge loan of otherworldly power==huge loan of otherworldly power.
* The seven word whisper==seven word whisper.
In the first two cases it's pretty easy to see where the 'other side' crossed the line. No talking to the conscious mind until he invites you in. No spewing power around in the real world wherever you like. But how is the last remnants of a Fallen's Shadow whispering to her subject crossing a line?
My best guess, is the fact that her statement, "And it was all your fault, Harry," is an out-and-out lie. I know it seems pretty weird to say that a fallen angel lying might be out of bounds, but think about all the examples we've seen elsewhere in the books of the difference between actual, direct untruths and deception, manipulation and word games. Her statement, unlike the waffling and misleading commentary of the Sidhe was a claim that is simply not true. Not everything is Harry's fault, no matter how often he tells himself otherwise.
This idea, that the Fallen in the coins can no more directly lie to their victims than a Sidhe can, really appeals to me, in part because it seems to explain the simple fact that Lash never did seem to have directly lied to Harry, even when it would totally have been in her best interests to do so. She could hit him with illusions all day (which are far more deceptive than words, if you don't place some vast and particular weight of meaning on words), but when she said something, no matter how twisted up it was by her weird perspective, it seems to have been true.
So why is a lie of seeming or implication fine, where a simple statement in words that contradicts reality is not? Here's another quote that might shed a little light on that idea: "In the beginning was the Word."
Okay, this has gone from a post to an essay. I wonder how many TL:DRs I'll get? ;)
LML
john4200:
--- Quote from: LogicMouseLives on July 30, 2011, 07:50:58 PM ---There's only one such being who has been in the position to know Harry in particular that well. Lasciel's Shadow.
--- End quote ---
I think you are making a big assumption there -- you are assuming that the entity must "know" Harry and that such a process requires past association. But an angel-level entity may be capable of reading Harry's entire mind instantly, so it could "know" Harry even if that was the first time that it had encountered him.
shadowswimmer77:
Thoughts:
1. Lash has my vote for the parasite. Don't have a lot to go on, but Jim rarely includes random words that don't mean something. To me that says we're not just talking about a tree.
2. Anyone else notice this is the first book that doesn't take place timewise in line with the publishing schedule? All the other books take place roughly a year apart, chronologically (except for SF and FM which were published only about 6 months apart.) Now this takes place only 6 months after the end of Changes even though its been 15 since it was published. Curious if this will affect how the rest of the series goes (like, in the past we wouldn't get to see Harry's reunion with his friends except in a flashback, unless it gets put off for a whole year or whatever.) Not necessarily important, but just an observation.
3. Don't think we've been introduced to any actual Outsiders yet. Definite Lovecraft influence, bet they come in at the end. Wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of alliance between the demons/Fallen and the Outsiders ultimately.
4. Kemmler's still alive. Just guessing. Already admittedly hard to kill and stuff he's involved with has been cropping up all over. Might even end up being one of the ultimate Big Bads.
5. Surprised nobody's talking more about the whole He Who Walks Behind flashback. First thought: where Harry first spies his reflection in the arcade game is, quite possibly, my favorite in the book. Ultra creepy, and once again convinces me this series needs some lovin' either in movies or tv. Anyway, no way is He Who Walks Behind is out of the picture. Already had references to him in Grave Peril and Blood Rites, he'll be back. And seriously...no way that bad a** of a demon gets killed by a couple exploding gas tanks.
6. To borrow some labels from Twi-fans *shudder*, Was Team Murphy. Now Team Molly. Love to Murph, but I think she works better with Kincaid. All you haters out there, I think all this book established is that Harry's not gonna hop right into a relationship with Molly. He now sees her as an adult, but still holds some reservations. A few more no holds barred fights and mutual lifesavings between them, I wouldn't be surprised to see something happen.
7. Not really loving the notion of the Fomor. I understand the need to bring in another side to the whole fight and that mythologically they tie in with the Fae, but I would have preferred....I don't know what. Something else (although it's hard seeing as Jim's already tapped into quite a few different myth/theologies.) That could change though (although to be fair, I didn't like them much in Aftermath either.)
Guess that's it for now, appreciate feedback.
LogicMouseLives:
--- Quote from: john4200 on July 30, 2011, 07:59:44 PM ---I think you are making a big assumption there -- you are assuming that the entity must "know" Harry and that such a process requires past association. But an angel-level entity may be capable of reading Harry's entire mind instantly, so it could "know" Harry even if that was the first time that it had encountered him.
--- End quote ---
You may be right. But the fact is, in every direction we look at this setting the equation greater power==greater (and often more incomprehensible) limitation holds.
If any old fallen angel could just walk up to any old human being and whisper lies in their ears, with the only possible drawback being the return whisper of an opposing angel? Well. I don't think the human race would have lasted this long.
Fact is, I'm definitely wrong about some of this.
--- Quote from: LogicMouseLives on July 30, 2011, 07:50:58 PM ---
My best guess, is the fact that her statement, "And it was all your fault, Harry," is an out-and-out lie. I know it seems pretty weird to say that a fallen angel lying might be out of bounds, but think about all the examples we've seen elsewhere in the books of the difference between actual, direct untruths and deception, manipulation and word games. Her statement, unlike the waffling and misleading commentary of the Sidhe was a claim that is simply not true. Not everything is Harry's fault, no matter how often he tells himself otherwise.
This idea, that the Fallen in the coins can no more directly lie to their victims than a Sidhe can, really appeals to me, in part because it seems to explain the simple fact that Lash never did seem to have directly lied to Harry, even when it would totally have been in her best interests to do so. She could hit him with illusions all day (which are far more deceptive than words, if you don't place some vast and particular weight of meaning on words), but when she said something, no matter how twisted up it was by her weird perspective, it seems to have been true.
--- End quote ---
I just went and poked through Harry's conversations with Lash/Shiela in Dead Beat, and instantly began to find places where she outright lied to him, so that particular idea is shot.
Oh, well. Back to the drawing board.
LML
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