Author Topic: What a Black Court Elder might look like...  (Read 3173 times)

Offline vultur

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Re: What a Black Court Elder might look like...
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2011, 03:53:56 AM »
Hmm ... maybe we need to answer another question first -- what do we think the term "Black Court Elder" means?


I'm seeing it as a stage of maturity -- an Elder is to a Master Vampire what a Master Vampire is to a normal Blampire -- rather than, or as well as, a designation of raw power or a political term. It means a Blampire whose vampire powers have (due to immense age) hit about the upper limit those powers go to - whether that vamp has spellcasting, or massive political power, or not.

So Mavra's at something like -27 Refresh - but she's not, in my view, an Elder because she's still maybe a century or two old and she's still "only" got Supernatural Toughness and Strength, etc. Even if she had like ten Refinements on top -- though she'd be more powerful than many Elders -- she still wouldn't be one.

So when I made a "low end" Elder, I made one with just the supercharged vampire powers, not the spellcasting etc. I'm not arguing that this -26 Refresh dude is "what all Elders look like" -- this is meant to be the "basic Elder" which you can then give spellcasting, etc. to.

If you think Elder is a measure of raw power instead, then it all works different. (But that would leave you with, probably, no non-spellcasting Elders, which I don't find desirable...)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 04:01:10 AM by vultur »

Offline vultur

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Re: What a Black Court Elder might look like...
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2011, 03:59:20 AM »
Blowing up a city: a few hundred shifts of transformation and disruption thaumaturgy.
Stopping an army: 30 shifts of warding thaumaturgy.
Killing 200 men: 16 shift spirit evocation, targeting 5 zones.

Being on the Senior Council: priceless.

All doable at 30-40 refresh.

Link 1: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,27135.0.html
Link 2: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,27100.0.html

Oh, yeah, I'm not arguing that the SC are stronger than that! I'd stat them with base refresh in the 30s.

What I *am* arguing is that:

- above -40 is pretty much the "pure plot device" range (if the Merlin is something like -33, EBG/Lea/Ivy are probably somewhere in the neighborhood of -40, and those three are - to me - about the bleeding edge of meaningful stattability);

- Black Court Elders don't strike me as even close to the "plot device" range, probably no more powerful than the Senior Council member, if that much (I'd argue "maybe equal in a personal fight, one-on-one, between the Blampire Elder and the SC member; worse at stuff on the scale of the Merlin's wards or Tunguska/Krakatoa")

- therefore, they should fall in the high -20s to -30s Refreshwise, except for the absolute nightmares like the (hypothetical) "Black King", who WOULD be plot-devicey.


EDIT: as to the links...

Barring a few quibbles (which I posted in that thread), Amelia Este, Baroness Hecate looks about right to me - but for the Black King or a similar uber-powerful-even-among-Elders Elder, not for the "average" Elder.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 04:06:30 AM by vultur »

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: What a Black Court Elder might look like...
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2011, 04:30:01 AM »
I'd say that "Elder" is basically a political designation for the leaders of the court. Like Lord Of Outer Night.

And there are plenty of statted things above 40 refresh. They work. Give me a moment, I'll find some.

EDIT: List of things I've statted with more than 40 points of power:

Extraordinary NPC thread:

-Cthulhu

Generic NPC thread:

-Demon Lord
-King Corb
-Lich Lord
-Seraphim
-King Blizzard
-Barrakan Frost
-Grandfather Glacier
-Jack Frost
-Mother Sleet
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 04:39:37 AM by Sanctaphrax »