The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection

A fresh perspective on Proven Guity (Spoilers for everything)

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Piotr1600:

--- Quote from: Serack on June 30, 2011, 03:41:55 PM ---I'll have a lot more to say within the week, but there's another dimension here for the "communications channel" in that I'm pretty sure that Michael was already leaving Chicago on a calling before Harry even spoke with him after getting the Gatekeeper's message.  Implying that someone on that side of things had a toe in the mud too.
--- End quote ---
Maybe more than one toe. <LOL>
Michael out to do some WG-work is *available* to come back via the ways, and chop up outsiders & RCVs, and essentially prevent his daughter from getting the chop.

Because if things had progressed the way they were going, the *least* bad thing that would have happened wold have been to make Harry/Molly fugitives from the WC (assuming they could even get away somehow.)
And it goes downhill rather precipitously from there, in terms of "bad outcomes"... (Imagine the repercussions of Michael & Harry trying to save Molly via force. Ugly doesn't even begin to cover it...)

IMO, I think Molly has her critical part to play yet. Or perhaps she has *more* critical parts to play. She's already sort-of responsible for Harry becoming a much better mage as it is.
Just the re-examination of the basics of wizardry she forced him to make (to be a good teacher) has really increased his skill level already.


On the other side, if your base theory is true, then the odds that the Gatekeeper is a Black Hat of some kind go down quite considerably...

laura118b:

--- Quote from: poppyhead on June 30, 2011, 06:35:03 PM ---
brief pause while i post to remember this thread....

now back to your regularly scheduled theory-gasms.

:)poppyhead

--- End quote ---
Welcome to the boards, it's what we do :D

AcornArmy:
When I think about the Arctis Tor stuff, I keep coming back to Jim's comment telling us to think about the primary and secondary effects of Molly's abduction, and also about Jim's hint that Mab never foresaw Harry throwing Summer Fire into Winter's Wellspring. The latter would indicate that drawing Winter's forces back from the border was never Mab's intention, so it was also never her intention to allow Summer to retaliate against the Red Court.

So, what would've been the effects that she did expect to happen? Until Harry sicced the fetches on Molly, he didn't even know she was the wizard who was acting as their beacon on the Earth side. Going back further, the fetch attacks were what ultimately caused Molly to bring Harry in in the first place. Just prior to that point, Harry was gearing up to use Little Chicago to hunt down the source of the black magic-- a broken Little Chicago, which would've fried Harry's mind like a 10 cent fuse in a thunderstorm.

Could Mab possibly have foreseen events clearly enough that she could send fetches ahead of time, have them maul a random guy in a bathroom just to set up Molly's boyfriend, and trigger Molly to call Harry just in time to prevent him from using Little Chicago and frying his little wizard brain?

We know that, as of Harry's conversation with Mab in Dead Beat, Lea was unable to come to the phone and Mab was taking her calls and responsibilities. We know that for Harry's entire life, Lea has followed him in the Nevernever, set up base across from wherever he was, and guarded him from attacks via the Nevernever. It's not much of a leap to guess that this would also have allowed Lea the opportunity to enter Harry's home from the Nevernever if she wished to do so.

We know that when Harry went to Arctis Tor, Lea was still detained, which would mean that Mab was still acting in Lea's stead. I think we have to assume that, in addition to Lea's other responsibilities, Mab was forced to take up guardianship of Harry's residence on the Nevernever side while Lea was absent. Mab would've been the one guarding Harry's home from Nevernever predators-- admittedly, with the aid of Lea's giant centipede and murderous tulips and such. Mab would've had perfect access to Harry's home, and maybe even a certain right to enter, given Lea's responsibilities toward him.

In short, Mab might have been able to foresee that Harry was about to use Little Chicago and get himself killed. She was under obligation to protect his spiritual self. It's unclear(to me, anyway) whether or not this would obligate her to protect him from blowing himself up with magic. What is clear is that Mab had personal reasons to want to see Harry protected, as evidenced by her refusal to get rid of Lloyd Slate until Harry was ready to take his place. So, Mab sends a fetch to mess up the orphan kid's life, Molly calls Harry just in time to prevent him from using Little Chicago, Harry heads out to meet Molly, and by wild coincidence he finds himself already on the trail of the black magic that the Gatekeeper sent him to hunt down. Eventually, Harry goes back home and grabs Bob, and while they're out Mab goes and fixes Little Chicago.

This theory might even explain the car that drove Harry off the road. It could've been one of Mab's servants, under orders to slow Harry down so that events would play out in the right sequence.

Still, as nice as all that is, it doesn't explain why Molly would've been abducted. The abduction actually forced Harry back to trying to use Little Chicago, which had by then been fixed. It also doesn't explain why the Scarecrow attacked Harry and Thomas outside of the Fool Moon warehouse. Unless the Scarecrow and the abduction were a distraction, maybe? Something to keep Harry's mind off of Madrigal Raith and what he was doing in Chicago? But no need to bring Molly all the way to Arctis Tor, unless Mab wanted Harry to see what had happened there. The bones of an army of trolls and the smell of Hellfire.

Maybe Mab was accomplishing multiple small goals all at once, and Harry ended up throwing something unexpected into the mix when he sent the Fire into the Wellspring.

Which still doesn't tell us why Sandra whatshername would have manipulated Molly into using black magic, or what Madrigal was supposed to do in Chicago. Although, given the common factor that both parties involved were using magic to instill fear, maybe the two were connected. I have no idea how they might've been connected, I'm just taking a wild guess here.

On the other hand, why would Mab have gone to all that trouble rather than just popping over and fixing Little Chicago at the start of the whole mess? I dunno. Maybe she didn't want to be seen by Bob, or maybe she saw an opportunity to accomplish other goals at the same time, or...? Anyway, it's just a theory.

Agravaine:
Really interesting lines of thought here.  I think that Gatekeeper's warning ends up saving Molly, saving Harry, saving Michael and saving the White Council (again). 

Let's focus on Molly Primary Effects first:

Molly's abduction: (1) removes her from Chicago and sends her to Winter -- where time flows differently (and as controlled by the Winter Queens); (2) her fear is fed upon and essentially drained.  In other words, Molly is made more open to turning herself in (lower fear) AND her trial is delayed. 

Secondary Effects:

(A) Harry is forced to mentor Molly.
(B) The White Council fails to execute Molly
(C) Michael saves the White Council from being crushed. 
(D) Karrin Murphy's police career begins its multi-book slide into the trash-heap and her new career in knighting opens.
(E) Lasciel's Shadow later witnesses the example of Molly "defying her nature." 

The White God wins on every front.

Now let's focus on the BC:

(A)  BC is making a play for Molly.  Molly is encouraged by her "friend" to consider using fear as a motivation to avoid drug abuse.  The seed is planted in Molly to use black magic "to do good." 
(B)  BC realizes that any Black Magic in the US -- particularly on the doorstep of a warden -- is going to be detected.  Therefore a fall-guy is needed.  So that the WC won't realize that Molly is behind it. 
(C)  Madrigal Raith is set up to be that fall-guy.   
(D)  Suborned Fetches abduct Molly and notably kill the Djinn/Lawyer cutting any link between the BC and Madrigal Raith. 
(E)  Fetches bring Molly to Arctis Tor -- which has been recently assaulted by the BC. 

So the questions we are left with are (1) why attack Arctis Tor at all; (2) why bring Molly to Arctis Tor after the unsuccessful assault. 

As to why attack Arctis Tor, clearly it was not truly an attack on Mab.  Attacking a being of that kind of power -- in her place of power, surrounded by her retainers -- is not a winning strategy.  Therefore, it was not an attack on Mab, but something else -- a diversion .... or a RESCUE!

Yes, the BC and Harry were both mounting rescue operations in Arctis Tor.  The BC was attempting to free Lea before she was properly chilled out by Mab, failed and was beaten off.  (Ironically, Harry and Thomas almost free Lea).  This leaves several possibilities for why Molly was even at Arctis Tor.  Either, the BC decided that Harry might free Lea if brought to Arctis Tor in the right mindset or Scarecrow expected the assault to be ongoing and that Molly had some kind of role to play. 

MegaPuff75:
Agravaine you are assuming that the assault failed in its goals, but the only bodies Harry & co. find are those of trolls so apparently no one from the assault team died, if no one died in the attempt it makes no sense to withdraw before completing your goal, I think the most likely reason for the attack was as a jail break.

--- Quote from: Piotr1600 on June 30, 2011, 03:29:17 PM ---By moving the pieces just so, he* arranged for Michael to accompany a whole lot of WC personnel thru the NN back to Chicago - thus preventing the RCV+ Outsider ambush from becoming a rout & a slaughter. 
In PG, Eb himself seems to think that the RCVs combined with the outsiders they encountered would have been much more deadly without a KOC there to deal with 'tentacles and things'.

While I'm certain (from his actions / word choice) that Raschid was offended by what the Merlin was intent on doing to Molly,  IMO the real goal was probably to save all those young wardens - and the experienced wizards accompanying them. It was also an effective action against outsiders, which is admittedly something that Raschid has a professional interest in... :)

So, I'm positing that the Gatekeeper was warning Harry about black magic as part of a goal to save WC lives AND act against outsiders. Saving Molly may have been just a nice bonus... 

--- End quote ---
This seems to fit with Bob's explanation of sending messages back in time, The Gatekeeper couldn't tell Harry what he needed to know to save the WC but he could tell Harry what he needed to know to save molly and as a side effect save the WC.

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