The Dresden Files > DFRPG Resource Collection
Custom Powers Master List (Work In Progress)
Tedronai:
I don't think that Flurry should be an effect that is available in this game.
If it's representing multiple attacks per target, it would be reasonably replaced with a simple bonus on the roll, already available in this power.
If it's representing attacks against multiple targets in a short time-span, it would be reasonably by spray attacks or by the zone-attack already included in this power.
Multiple-action powers are, in my experience, simply too difficult to balance effectively to be worth the gain.
Prophecy is listing 'knowledge rolls' as a separate entity from assessments and declarations, which isn't really accurate.
Centarion:
On Supernatural Martial Arts:
I don't think flurry is necessary. I think it should be handled, as Tedronai said, by a spray attack against multiple enemies or by an increased bonus to the attack roll against one target. I would do this by allowing whirlwind to hit everything but you in a zone (at no penalty, am I interpreting this correctly?) for 3 stress, or make a spray attack for 1 stress. I would then replace Flurry with the ability to add (3 or 4) to your attack roll single target for 4 stress. I know this is intended as a rework for Sacred Guardian which you think is really op (I think it is minorly op, not even close to the level of spell casting for example), so you may want to tone down the big bonus to a roll, but this power already limits the amount of effects you have access to (you cant have +1 for 1 stress, +2 for 2 stress, ect. for both attack and defense).
Further, I would make it clear weather Piercing Attack ignores armor from toughness powers (it doesn't satisfy a catch, but it does ignore armor? Is the armor from toughness something you can pierce, maybe sometimes it is, but sometimes it may be themed as something that isn't armor). I don't know why this power only allows Holy Strike, what if a Demon Scion (some mercenary like Kincaid who was really good at martial arts) took this power and wanted to satisfy thematically appropriate catches? What happened to the 2 stress per attack to satisfy the catch on any supernatural entity from Sacred Guardian?
On Incite Effect:
I really like this. The mechanics seem good, and strong, but about on par with the version in the book (and not as op as Evocation with refinements for example). There are a few confusing points (or maybe clear points that I don't think make sense thematically) I would like to address.
First, on Physical/Mental Effect, I would make it clear that if you do not have at range the target *may* defend as though it were a fists attack (with the same wording on both, not different wording as it is now, formatting nitpick), or against the Incited Effect as normal (I think this is what is intended, and it should be IMO, but if it is not, fine). I would make it clear that when you use the power you roll the skill you chose, and then the target chooses to defend as if it was a fists attack (using weapons or fists or athletics as appropriate) or against the effect incited (using discipline or endurance or might as appropriate).
I would also not restrict physical effects to only be defensible by endurance (or athletics with a 0 cost), sometimes the effect may be something you defend against with might, sometimes the target will be able to use dodging with something that isn't athletics. It entirely depends on the flavor of the effect incited, this could be something you choose when you pick the power, or it could be something that the target chooses when they defend (choice between dodge, or just take it and shrug it off with endurance, may be an option. In the case of grasping shadows the target may want to dodge, or fight them off with might). If the target chooses, it does make the physical version weaker than the mental version (because I cant really think of a mental thing that wouldn't be defended with discipline, excluding a stunt on the target to use conviction or something).
On the other hand you can use the physical version for a wide range of scene maneuvers like knocking over bookcases, or destroying cover, or lighting things on fire, or placing a Clinging Darkness aspect (in the case of shadows), whereas the mental version (without mass effect) doesn't make any sense for scene maneuvers (unless you theme your shadows as sapping mental energy or something, but that is kind of a stretch IMO). I may make this distinction explicit, allowing Incite Physical to make broader maneuvers but be defended by athletics or endurance (or might), where Incite Mental can only make maneuvers on a single targets but in return can only be defended by discipline. Further, Incite Mass would allow a physical effect to be zone wide, negating the ability to defend with athletics (can't dodge it when the shadows cover the whole zone), or allow a mental effect to place a scene or multi-target aspect (you make the whole area depressing).
This leads into the last things that were unclear to me, Incite Mass Effect says you may make spray and zone attacks does it allow you to make maneuvers against a zone or multiple targets (as you could with evocation)? Also, I assume making a zone attack comes with a penalty to the roll (-2?) but this is not clear (or it may not have a penalty, is that balanced?).
I also wanted to add my thanks for compiling these lists (they are very useful).
Sanctaphrax:
--- Quote from: Tedronai on July 26, 2012, 09:01:37 AM ---Multiple-action powers are, in my experience, simply too difficult to balance effectively to be worth the gain.
Prophecy is listing 'knowledge rolls' as a separate entity from assessments and declarations, which isn't really accurate.
--- End quote ---
I'm well aware that Flurry is unnecessary and a lot of work, but I don't really care...I do this as a hobby, the work is part of the point.
(And of course, much of what I write is unnecessary and questionably useful. Doesn't bother me.)
I considered modelling it as a boosted spray attack where multiple elements of the spray can be aimed at one guy, but this seemed better.
Knowledge rolls may or may not be separate from Assessments and Declarations depending on interpretation. I'm trying to cover all possibilities here.
What do you think of Precognition?
--- Quote from: Centarion on July 26, 2012, 04:39:16 PM ---...(I think it is minorly op, not even close to the level of spell casting for example)...
--- End quote ---
Not to be rude, but your opinion is wrong.
Sacred Guardian is the best physical combat Power in the game. It's also the best social combat Power, and a pretty good spellcasting Power. (It can boost an "attack or defense roll", which can be quite a few things.)
It provides enormous bonuses whenever you want them, and don't even get me started on the bit about the Catch.
Even if you implement the common-sense houserule of limiting it to physical attacks, it's still vastly better than True Aim. And True Aim is pretty darn good.
Meanwhile, spellcasting isn't clearly op. There is disagreement there...personally, I think its power level is roughly appropriate.
--- Quote from: Centarion on July 26, 2012, 04:39:16 PM ---Further, I would make it clear weather Piercing Attack ignores armor from toughness powers (it doesn't satisfy a catch, but it does ignore armor?
--- End quote ---
It ignores Toughness armour. What led you to believe otherwise?
--- Quote from: Centarion on July 26, 2012, 04:39:16 PM ---I don't know why this power only allows Holy Strike, what if a Demon Scion (some mercenary like Kincaid who was really good at martial arts) took this power and wanted to satisfy thematically appropriate catches?
--- End quote ---
The techniques presented here are not the only possible techniques. Others might exist. So Kincaid would likely use some technique that I haven't written.
--- Quote from: Centarion on July 26, 2012, 04:39:16 PM ---What happened to the 2 stress per attack to satisfy the catch on any supernatural entity from Sacred Guardian?
--- End quote ---
It never existed, Sacred Guardian can only ignore the Toughness of "a spiritual creature". I don't know what that means and the effect was pretty BS anyway, so I removed it entirely.
--- Quote from: Centarion on July 26, 2012, 04:39:16 PM ---On Incite Effect:
I really like this...
--- End quote ---
Thanks.
--- Quote from: Centarion on July 26, 2012, 04:39:16 PM ---First, on Physical/Mental Effect, I would make it clear that if you do not have at range the target *may* defend as though it were a fists attack (with the same wording on both, not different wording as it is now, formatting nitpick), or against the Incited Effect as normal (I think this is what is intended, and it should be IMO, but if it is not, fine). I would make it clear that when you use the power you roll the skill you chose, and then the target chooses to defend as if it was a fists attack (using weapons or fists or athletics as appropriate) or against the effect incited (using discipline or endurance or might as appropriate).
--- End quote ---
That's what I tried to do. I guess I'll try again.
--- Quote from: Centarion on July 26, 2012, 04:39:16 PM ---I would also not restrict physical effects to only be defensible by endurance (or athletics with a [0] cost), sometimes the effect may be something you defend against with might, sometimes the target will be able to use dodging with something that isn't athletics. It entirely depends on the flavor of the effect incited, this could be something you choose when you pick the power, or it could be something that the target chooses when they defend (choice between dodge, or just take it and shrug it off with endurance, may be an option. In the case of grasping shadows the target may want to dodge, or fight them off with might). If the target chooses, it does make the physical version weaker than the mental version (because I cant really think of a mental thing that wouldn't be defended with discipline, excluding a stunt on the target to use conviction or something).
--- End quote ---
No.
Here's why:
Taking a high Athletics and Endurance is what you do when you want to be hard to hurt. Letting attacks hit other skills basically says "screw you" to that investment.
Heck, even hitting Endurance is a bit sketchy. Athletics defence is usually higher, because of Speed Powers and the principles of optimization.
Plus, it gives an extra option to characters who could already hit Athletics just by pulling a gun.
If people could Incite Effect against Stealth or Craftsmanship or whatever, Incite Emotion would frequently hit a defence of 0. That's in no way fair.
Plus, you can defend against anything and everything by being somewhere else. And anything that Might would work for can be covered by Endurance, which is often based off of physical bulk.
--- Quote from: Centarion on July 26, 2012, 04:39:16 PM ---On the other hand you can use the physical version for a wide range of scene maneuvers like knocking over bookcases, or destroying cover, or lighting things on fire, or placing a Clinging Darkness aspect (in the case of shadows), whereas the mental version (without mass effect) doesn't make any sense for scene maneuvers (unless you theme your shadows as sapping mental energy or something, but that is kind of a stretch IMO). I may make this distinction explicit, allowing Incite Physical to make broader maneuvers but be defended by athletics or endurance (or might), where Incite Mental can only make maneuvers on a single targets but in return can only be defended by discipline. Further, Incite Mass would allow a physical effect to be zone wide, negating the ability to defend with athletics (can't dodge it when the shadows cover the whole zone), or allow a mental effect to place a scene or multi-target aspect (you make the whole area depressing).
--- End quote ---
Incite Mental Effect can be used for scene maneuvers, subject to standard reasonableness tests. I don't see any problem with that...the scope of possible maneuvers is something that has to be worked out at the table.
Also, you can dodge a zone attack with Athletics. In fact, that's basically the only way to defend against a zone attack...you can't block an explosion, but you can get away from it.
--- Quote from: Centarion on July 26, 2012, 04:39:16 PM ---This leads into the last things that were unclear to me, Incite Mass Effect says you may make spray and zone attacks does it allow you to make maneuvers against a zone or multiple targets (as you could with evocation)?
--- End quote ---
No.
(Unless by "against a zone" you mean against the zone itself rather than against the people in the zone.)
Frankly, I'm not sure Evocation can do that either. The rules are somewhat contradictory on that point.
--- Quote from: Centarion on July 26, 2012, 04:39:16 PM ---Also, I assume making a zone attack comes with a penalty to the roll (-2?) but this is not clear (or it may not have a penalty, is that balanced?).
--- End quote ---
No penalty, for this or for Whirlwind Attack.
What made you think there was one?
--- Quote from: Centarion on July 26, 2012, 04:39:16 PM ---I also wanted to add my thanks for compiling these lists (they are very useful).
--- End quote ---
You're very welcome.
Tedronai:
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on July 27, 2012, 08:25:54 AM ---I'm well aware that Flurry is unnecessary and a lot of work, but I don't really care...I do this as a hobby, the work is part of the point.
(And of course, much of what I write is unnecessary and questionably useful. Doesn't bother me.)
--- End quote ---
It's not just that it's difficult and unnecessary, but also that it's likely to be broken no matter what you do. Rather like I suspect it is, now.
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on July 27, 2012, 08:25:54 AM ---Knowledge rolls may or may not be separate from Assessments and Declarations depending on interpretation. I'm trying to cover all possibilities here.
--- End quote ---
What other means would a 'knowledge roll' have to interact with the game mechanics?
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on July 27, 2012, 08:25:54 AM ---What do you think of Precognition?
--- End quote ---
It feels a bit weak for a 2-refresh power, but definitely more powerful than a 1-refresh power.
(I hope you weren't including the integral trapping-mover in the valuation.)
I think part of the problem is the unpredictability of the assessment, and thus the unpredictability of its usefulness (I mean, really, when that mook of a mugger jumps you on the street, it could get you 'bum leg' or 'just a bad apple' or anything in-between). I suggest including some guiding principles as to the nature of the aspects revealed. Such as that they should be reasonably expected to be useful within the scene in which they're revealed.
Sanctaphrax:
--- Quote from: Tedronai on July 27, 2012, 08:57:58 AM ---It's not just that it's difficult and unnecessary, but also that it's likely to be broken no matter what you do. Rather like I suspect it is, now.
--- End quote ---
Huh. And here I was trying to lowball its power.
Can you give me an example of how it could be broken?
Now, I can nerf this as much as I want by increasing the penalty. What penalty would you think appropriate?
--- Quote from: Tedronai on July 27, 2012, 08:57:58 AM ---What other means would a 'knowledge roll' have to interact with the game mechanics?
--- End quote ---
Um, none. But rolls don't all interact with the mechanics, some are means of altering the narrative.
If I lift a box, that doesn't necessarily create a LIFTED BOX aspect. Sometimes it just makes a box move.
Similarly, sometimes the GM might just tell you "the Catch is transgendered squidzilla ink" rather than giving you access to the Aspect VULNERABLE TO TRANSGENDERED SQUIDZILLA INK.
Or maybe he'll handle it through Aspects. Both approaches are valid.
--- Quote from: Tedronai on July 27, 2012, 08:57:58 AM ---It feels a bit weak for a 2-refresh power, but definitely more powerful than a 1-refresh power.
(I hope you weren't including the integral trapping-mover in the valuation.)
I think part of the problem is the unpredictability of the assessment, and thus the unpredictability of its usefulness (I mean, really, when that mook of a mugger jumps you on the street, it could get you 'bum leg' or 'just a bad apple' or anything in-between). I suggest including some guiding principles as to the nature of the aspects revealed. Such as that they should be reasonably expected to be useful within the scene in which they're revealed.
--- End quote ---
Good idea. I'll do that.
What do you mean by "the integral trapping-mover"?
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