The Dresden Files > DFRPG Resource Collection
Custom Powers Master List (Work In Progress)
Tedronai:
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on May 31, 2012, 04:50:57 AM ---I'm open to the possibility that my biases might be screwing this up. What changes would you suggest?
--- End quote ---
I suggested what I honestly believe to be the best solution earlier: leave it to compels.
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on May 31, 2012, 04:50:57 AM ---Bear in mind that animals, while dumb, are not Mindless. You can social-fu them with Survival and control them with Domination.
--- End quote ---
I'm not talking about animals in the sense of mammals, birds, or even fish, here. I'm talking about insects, spiders, etc. I'm talking about things with brains that most people would barely recognize as such. Things with less computing power in their network of neurons than you likely have in whatever PC you're using to access the internet.
I mean, good luck attempting to use any sort of communication recognizable as language to persuade a mosquito to go bite someone else...
Heck, any entity capable of following the command 'acquire a weapon from those present on this table right in front of you' would be absurd without also having the ability to use the Scavenging trapping of Survival. ('gather sticks from the surrounding woods and bring them here')
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on May 31, 2012, 04:50:57 AM ---For a computer, retrieving info isn't hard. But zombies and golems and super-sized microbes and other such things, who are the typical users of Mindless, are totally incapable of such actions.
--- End quote ---
A standard computer is definitely Mindless. A computer doesn't need to be notably 'complex' or 'impressive' to be able to store and retrieve data. The exclusion of an entity controlled by a computer among your list of 'typical users' is thus a prime example of those arbitrary definitions.
On the other hand, a computer DOES need to be notably complex/impressive in order to achieve many of the capabilities NOT listed in this power, such as much of Athletics.
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on May 31, 2012, 04:50:57 AM ---Maybe I should group trappings together so that they can be purchased together for a discount with Superior Programming. That'd let robots be made at reasonable costs.
--- End quote ---
I'm not convinced that this would be sufficient as a fix (in fact, I highly suspect that it would not be, though I'll await an actual examination before making a definitive conclusion), but I can definitely see it as a distinct improvement.
As for your uncertainty regarding Crafting: insects build structures of a complexity rivaling modern humans, and surpassing ancient ones, and almost any Golem is going to be capable of Breaking Things.
Sanctaphrax:
A Mindless creature can still gather sticks, if it doesn't have to do any real searching. It could pick a weapon off of a table, but not out from under a pile of metal scraps.
In other words, it can work just fine until it runs into something that would require an actual dice roll. But even a difficulty 0 roll will stop it cold.
Does that make sense?
If not, I doubt letting Mindless beings do complex perception will have any real consequences. The list of banned trappings is pretty long, maybe too long.
Anyway, computer-controlled beings aren't really in-genre. So I don't expect to see too many of 'em. So I'm treating them as an unusual case.
This power is not for robots but applicable to zombies. It's for zombies but applicable to robots. If you need to buy some upgrades to run a robot off of it, that's fine by me.
I figure that a Golem probably breaks stuff with Might rather than Craftsmanship, but you're probably right. I'll leave Craftsmanship off the list.
PS: Now that the vagueness of the power has been addressed, you're mostly criticizing it based on semi-mechanical reasons of "making sense", right? I want to make sure that I have the issues right here.
Tedronai:
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on May 31, 2012, 05:56:19 AM ---A Mindless creature can still gather sticks, if it doesn't have to do any real searching. It could pick a weapon off of a table, but not out from under a pile of metal scraps.
In other words, it can work just fine until it runs into something that would require an actual dice roll. But even a difficulty 0 roll will stop it cold.
Does that make sense?
--- End quote ---
One of the most common reasons for dice rolls on simple actions is a time constraint. I do not see why having a time constraint would mean automatic utter failure for a mindless being on a task that it is otherwise capable of completing satisfactorily.
And if a golem can pick a target designated to it out of a room of not-target (chairs, tables, other people, it's creator/master...) I don't see why it would be fundamentally automatically incapable of identifying the halberd in the scrap metal.
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on May 31, 2012, 05:56:19 AM ---PS: Now that the vagueness of the power has been addressed, you're mostly criticizing it based on semi-mechanical reasons of "making sense", right? I want to make sure that I have the issues right here.
--- End quote ---
Yes, the over-arching game-melting-ness of the previous version is successfully, well, minimized, in this version.
No, 'making sense' is not the sole issue remaining. I also believe that the current incarnation of the exception upgrade is substantially overcosted and that the current list of banned trappings is both too large and too fixed.
I do not believe that robots should require either substantially more refresh than golems or their own equivalent power. I believe that this power is capable of representing both equally without bias. Just not in its current form.
eri:
How about instead of restricting it to a specific list of trappings that are forbidden, you say something like:
"Incapable Of Thought. Not being able to think has its downsides. There are some skill trappings you may never use. Have the GM go through the skill list and cross out trappings that your specific type of mindless would not logically be able to use. The following list is suggested as forbidden for golems, but you may need to adjust for robots: [insert list here]
Superior Instincts/Programming [-1]. The complexity of your program or your instincts is impressive. Select up to three skill trappings. Ignore the effects of Incapable Of Thought on those trappings. This trapping may be purchased multiple times."
A bit better maybe? You may want some kind of set number for least amount of skill trappings to be forbidden and you might want to have some kind of cummulative price increase for each time you take Superiour Instincts/Programming
I also suggest reminding the GM that social consequences may come to the "owner" of the mindless thing instead of the thing itself. If the owner is known, that is.
Tedronai:
--- Quote from: eri on May 31, 2012, 09:49:56 AM ---I also suggest reminding the GM that social consequences may come to the "owner" of the mindless thing instead of the thing itself. If the owner is known, that is.
--- End quote ---
Consequences resulting from an attack on one entity cannot instead place the resulting aspect on another entity.
Social attacks against the creator/owner of a Mindless entity might, in their narrative description, reference the Mindless entity, but they would not mechanically be directed at it, nor defended against by it.
Your edit to the power, on the other hand, brings us right back to the game-meltingly-awful uncertainty that this power contained in its previous version. A power with concrete drawbacks defined at the whim of the GM cannot be balanced outside of a single instance (ie. one particular GM in one particular game for one particular character and even possibly represented by one particular player, in some cases).
It contains the comparatively minuscule improvements over that previous version of a recommended list for a single vague category of potential users of the power and allowing 3 trappings to be excluded at a time for no additional cost.
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