A bit frustrated

[toturi]

Secondly, Soulfire can do ANY thaumaturgy at the speed and methods of Evocation.

Can you please explain how you got this? I did not find Soulfire(in its write up in YS) capable of granting any thaumaturgy at the speed and methods of Evocation.

[Belial666]

Soulfire provides the full range of Thaumaturgic spells as well as standard sponsored magic benefits - one of which is thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation. Also, when discussing the range of those benefits in the first part of the chapter, it says that particularly broad benefits come at an increased cost - and Soulfire is the only sponsored magic that has an increased cost.

[BumblingBear]

Soulfire provides the full range of Thaumaturgic spells as well as standard sponsored magic benefits - one of which is thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation. Also, when discussing the range of those benefits in the first part of the chapter, it says that particularly broad benefits come at an increased cost - and Soulfire is the only sponsored magic that has an increased cost.

Soulfire also automatically knocks down any target's armor by 1.

I think it would be thematically appropriate to count as the catch for physical immunity catchless monsters too.

It's pretty nasty.

[Taran]

I would call shenanigans on a spell like that.

I think a more appropriate way to model it would have been to make an area spell maneuver with soulfire like, "Receptive"

Then make an area social attack using either intimidation or conviction to calm the fuck down, and tag your "receptive" aspect on every person in the zone you laid it on.

::shrug::

I wasn't in a position to make social attacks, but that aside, why is it shenanigans.  I'm just curious why you think so.  I've  seen at least one block vs ALL actions examples on this thread...why does this one not work?  Also, if I did a compel agaisnt the group, would I not have to spend a fate point for each target...I assume only the first tag is free...

[Taran]

First of all, Soulfire is not mortal magic so it is technically not subject to the Laws.

Is this a hard and fast rule or just individual group concensus?

1) A 7-shift Ward vs agressive actions applied to the entire Zone. Any hostile actions have to contend with a block of 7 that does not break even if momentarily overcome and reflects attacks back on the attacker if the attacks don't overcome it. I think attackers are going to get the idea pretty fast.

2) A 7-shift zonewide veil vs agressive actions. Yes, it is a neuromancy spell. No, it does not affect the mind. It affects the sensory organs directly each time someone tries to attack, applying an illusion of sensory deprivation for all senses (including balance). You can't attack what you can't see, hear, smell or otherwise locate.

3) A 7-shift zonewide biomancy block vs agressive actions. It works by making you utterly calm and non-agressive, similarly to being chemically sedated only more benign and without the side-effects.

4) A 4-shift conjuration for mass, 1 shift conjuration for complexity, 4 shifts to apply the aspect "transparent". What does this do? It conjures a 3-ft-thick steel bubble around every person in the zone that happens to be transparent. Go ahead; try to shoot through 3 ft of steel. You can still talk and make funny faces through it though.

5) 7 shift zonewide block vs ignition. Sorry, firearms and explosives no longer work anymore. Feel free to use them as short clubs now.

1.  I LOVE this.  In game, my spell got destroyed by the mortal cop who spent FP's to make the roll to defend    Reflecting damage is icing on the cake.

2, 4,5 . That's neat.  Creative.

3.  This is how we might end up justifying it so that it circumvents the law.  Thematically, it's a bit drab...and I'd find it a bit disapointing.  it's really up to the GM how much tension he wants...

[toturi]

Soulfire provides the full range of Thaumaturgic spells as well as standard sponsored magic benefits - one of which is thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation. Also, when discussing the range of those benefits in the first part of the chapter, it says that particularly broad benefits come at an increased cost - and Soulfire is the only sponsored magic that has an increased cost.

All of the Sponsored Magics state "standard sponsored magic benefits", all the rest of them also make particular mention of the phrase "with an evocation spells method and speed" or something similar. Only Soulfire does not explicitly state this and leaves it out. Every other sponsored magic has explicit thaumaturgy at evocation's speed and methods, only Soulfire does not. There are other sponsored magics that lack part of "standard sponsored magic benefits" as well: Kemmlerian Necromancy, Hellfire and Places of Power don't do the Toughness downgrades.

We do not know the reason for the increased cost of Soulfire.

[WillH]

But with respects to the White Council, as the Warden on the scene, he gets to decide.

He gets to decide in the same way a cop gets to decide to pull someone over for speeding or look the other way. But, the law is the law, and cops who look the other way can run into problems with their superiors. They same goes for wardens.

Generally speaking the warden higher ups would probably just go with the call made by the warden on the scene. But that would make this situation much less interesting.

[Jack B]

As the devout catholic warden in this situation I didn't really see what was going on.  I was 10 power into an 18 complexity thaumaturgical spell and was busy chanting away.  I was in the area of effect of the block but never pushed up against it since I was out of the combat (except for getting shot by the frightened cops once).  None of the other PCs understand magic (including the soulfire wielding one) so getting a straight answer as to what happened may be difficult.

After the session ended I got to thinking, would casting this block have left a stain on the caster's soul/aura?  I would think that if the universe slaps you with a Lawbreaker power there would be some sort of effect visible to the Sight (or possibly a Soulgaze). 

The GM determined that it was a violation of the 4th law but didn't slap the lawbreaker power on him for role-playing purposes.  My warden didn't see it as a violation because it was only a block in one zone and left all other options open (including moving a zone away and shooting, running away, talking etc.

1) A 7-shift Ward vs agressive actions applied to the entire Zone. Any hostile actions have to contend with a block of 7 that does not break even if momentarily overcome and reflects attacks back on the attacker if the attacks don't overcome it. I think attackers are going to get the idea pretty fast.

I would be worried that the cop would kill himself on the ward.  If he hits the ward with a 6 shift attack with a shotgun he's facing at least some consequences.

First of all, Soulfire is not mortal magic so it is technically not subject to the Laws.

Do you mean it's not subject to the universe's laws or the White Council's laws?  My warden believes that he is subject to the council's laws because he's human and the source of his magic is not a signatory to the accords (even if the group had a laugh while that question was asked  )

[toturi]

He gets to decide in the same way a cop gets to decide to pull someone over for speeding or look the other way. But, the law is the law, and cops who look the other way can run into problems with their superiors. They same goes for wardens.

Generally speaking the warden higher ups would probably just go with the call made by the warden on the scene. But that would make this situation much less interesting.

Sometimes the law is clear, other times it is not. He is not so much looking the other way, but determining the guy isn't over the speed limit. The situation being less interesting may well be more fun.

[WillH]

Jack, Taran, I'm getting a sense you guys don't want to play around with the potential lawbreaker issues here. If that's the case just don't do it. The warden character didn't see it. Just keep him clueless on this topic. Or you can retcon things and say the spell was one of the cool non lawbreaking options posted earlier.  I think that would be passing a golden opportunity, but I'm not in your game.

On lawbreaking and the sight/soulgaze, I don't know about the sight, but soulgaze would show something. The novels even give the impression a soulgaze is a routine part of investigating a warlock.

Sponsored magic and the laws, you need to decide as a group, both respect to the universe and council.

[evileeyore]

Soulfire provides the full range of Thaumaturgic spells as well as standard sponsored magic benefits - one of which is thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation. Also, when discussing the range of those benefits in the first part of the chapter, it says that particularly broad benefits come at an increased cost - and Soulfire is the only sponsored magic that has an increased cost.

No it's not.  It is explained in "sidebar" but it is not a "Standard Benefit".

It is often specifically listed, but not in Soulfire's write up.

Soulfire already gives full Thaumaturgy for Channeling's cost, let's not go overboard here.  Which is my take on why Soulfire's cost is one higher.


My take on the Fourth Law issue:

You didn't force people to change their mind, implant thoughts or emotions, you just stopped action.  No more harmful than a "Bigby's Grasping Hand" force style spell.  No Laws broken even if it were purely mortal magic.

You didn't even stop them from being upset that you stopped the action or interfered with their ability to want to commit harm, you just them from being able to.

[WillH]

My take on the Fourth Law issue:

You didn't force people to change their mind, implant thoughts or emotions, you just stopped action.  No more harmful than a "Bigby's Grasping Hand" force style spell.  No Laws broken even if it were purely mortal magic.

You didn't even stop them from being upset that you stopped the action or interfered with their ability to want to commit harm, you just them from being able to.

YS240

Here, enthralling is any effort made to change the natural inclinations, choices, and behaviors of another person.

The natural inclination of the people involved was to continue fighting. Magic wasn't used to physically restrain them like a Bigby type spell. Magic was used on the minds of the victims to prevent them from acting according to their natural inclinations, a 4th law violation*. As a side note, the 4th law is all about what the road to hell is paved with.

*Sponsored magic issues aside.

[Jack B]

Jack, Taran, I'm getting a sense you guys don't want to play around with the potential lawbreaker issues here. If that's the case just don't do it.

It's not the case that we don't want to.  Personally, I love that spell and think it's completely in line with his sponsor's agenda.  I would hate to see him not able to use it or be forced to use a Bigby's Grasping Hand instead which is so much more boring.  It does, at least, abut with the 4th law which causes some real role playing opportunity between the group which is great as well.

Unfortunately, as I read this thread, I'm starting to change my mind about whether this is a violation.  Can it cause lasting damage to the cops?  It was a 1 round block so my inclination was to say no.  However, putting myself in the cops shoes, I'm here in a subway maintenance hallway confronted with a guy chanting and a couple of other guys looking suspicious and a huge bear!  I shoot the bear to little effect and then this guy jumps up and shouts "Calm the F- down" and all my religious beliefs reinforcing non-violence are slammed into my head and I have to dig deep down just to point my gun at the very large bear blocking my escape route from the other crazies.  One of the cops failed his discipline check. 

He could pretty easily come down with Post traumatic stress disorder or some other mental issues or even a loss of confidence in his ability and will have to take that desk job instead of the beat cop he always wanted to be.

Taran, your Warden wants to talk to you...

[evileeyore]

YS240
The natural inclination of the people involved was to continue fighting. Magic wasn't used to physically restrain them like a Bigby type spell. Magic was used on the minds of the victims to prevent them from acting according to their natural inclinations, a 4th law violation*. As a side note, the 4th law is all about what the road to hell is paved with.

*Sponsored magic issues aside.

Again, IMO it didn't actually cause any lasting affects, it was a Block.  Once dropped they were free to go right on being angry and hostile.  Their minds weren't changed.  They weren't overcome and caused to take consequences dictating they were "calm and non-hostile", they were actively restrained.  It was the mental equivalent of a physical restraint, once removed they were free to go right back to killing each other.

Like handcuffs or straight jackets, yes prolonged exsposure could be damaging, but a quick restraint isn't likely to do any damage.


Personally, I'd say it doesn't Break the Fourth Law and apply Lawbreaker, but it sure as hell would look like a Fourth Law break to any witnessing Wardens.  

I'd also have a talk with my group and go with the consensus.  Damn, The Laws of Magic are almost as bad as D&D Alignments.  

He could pretty easily come down with Post traumatic stress disorder or some other mental issues or even a loss of confidence in his ability and will have to take that desk job instead of the beat cop he always wanted to be.

Eh.  He took no stress from it and the Human Psyche is a lot less fragile than Harry Dresden tries to make it out to be.

I'd say given a few days the events would become a bit muddy for the cops involved, some more so than others.

[noclue]

If only we had some kind of points that could be used to compel shit like this and figure out what the fictional ramifications of mind spells are in our games?