Author Topic: A bit frustrated  (Read 33393 times)

Offline sinker

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2115
    • View Profile
Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #105 on: April 22, 2011, 12:20:43 AM »
@Taran Thats a really tough one actually. You aren't actually compelling them(which is technically the exact wording), you're manipulating the emotions and hoping that influences them enough. I would call it illegal in the likely to stain your soul way (I.E. lawbreaker) but by the letter of the law it's not technically wrong. Also hard to control technically. I know quite a few people who would react with anger or hostility to someone reminding them of said religious beliefs.

Offline evileeyore

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 197
  • PIZZA!
    • View Profile
Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #106 on: April 22, 2011, 01:58:28 AM »
The emotional beliefs come from within the victims won't necessarily know they were induced...  even so, if they were Believers, they might not see it as a bad thing, especially if it lead to a peaceful resolution.

If they are backsliders, athiests, or Recovering Ex-Religious, then I could see some anger if they found out where the emotions and beliefs came from.

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9860
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #107 on: April 22, 2011, 02:09:35 AM »
I've got a good one, and it'll probably be my last point regarding the Laws.  With sponsored magic, it says with things like biomancy, the sponsor takes care of figuring out how to put the body back together when healing. (i'm paraphrasing, obviously).  With a sponsor like Soul-fire, can the sponsor take care of pesky things like corrupting the spellcaster and his targets?

Here's what I mean:

An evil corrupt entity would purposely try to corrupt the target of a spell as well as the person casting it.

An entity that gives you soul fire would try to avoid that.  How did the spellcaster know the cops were religious, or had beleifs of non-violence?  He didn't. The caster cast a spell that made everyone calm down, the Sponsor took care of the rest.

Obviously, you have free will when it comes to soul-fire, but if you start wanting to murder people with it, you're gonna get compels urging you not to.  If you ignore them, you'll become tained, lose your sponsor and get hunted down my wardens  BUT if you are trying your best to do good, your sponsor will do its best to help you acheive your goal. (you still might get hunted down by wardens...but you might not be tainted.)

Anyways, that's just an interpretation, and it doesn't apply to regular spellcasters.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 02:13:38 AM by Taran »

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9860
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #108 on: April 22, 2011, 02:12:16 AM »
If they are backsliders, athiests, or Recovering Ex-Religious, then I could see some anger if they found out where the emotions and beliefs came from.

Sure they'd be angry.  I get angry when someone cuts me off in traffic, but it doesn't force me to run the guy down.  I just ignore it and keep driving...mostly...

Offline evileeyore

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 197
  • PIZZA!
    • View Profile
Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #109 on: April 22, 2011, 02:20:43 AM »
Sure they'd be angry.  I get angry when someone cuts me off in traffic, but it doesn't force me to run the guy down.  I just ignore it and keep driving...mostly...
What I'm saying is the type who feverently don't Believe or whom are turning or have turned away from Belief when filled with Belief and then told "I cast a spell which filled you with Belief" would trigger that anti-religious fire.

Or it could lead to a resurgence of Faith if they had lost it along the way.

All I was saying.

Offline devonapple

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2165
  • Parkour to YOU!
    • View Profile
    • LiveJournal Account
Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #110 on: April 22, 2011, 03:10:57 AM »
...and then told "I cast a spell which filled you with Belief" would trigger that anti-religious fire.

It's possible to justify such a reaction, but it sounds a lot closer to the munchkinly Champions disadvantages "Berzerk: only when Presence Attacked" or "Berzerk: Only when mind-Controlled."
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline Becq

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1253
    • View Profile
Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #111 on: April 22, 2011, 03:26:32 AM »
Regarding the subtlety/magic discussion, this is discussed some on YS179.  Basically, my interpretation is that it seems to filter down to the idea that a character's emotion-related aspects can be applied to spellcasting.  So, for example, Dresden has the aspect "Not So Subtle, Still Quick To Anger".  This can be compelled in social environments as normal.  In addition to that, though, it could be compelled when Dresden tries to use magic that requires a subtle touch.  Generally, Dresden tends to steer clear of such magic because he knows he's bad at it.  Likewise, such an aspect could be invoked to boost other sorts of magic.  Emotions like anger can feed power into offensive fire spells for example.  Dresden does this, from time to time, too.

I don't get the impression that all spellcasters must specialize toward subtle or non-subtle in this way (the section I referenced mentions that "some" spellcasters have "blind spots" of this sort.

edit: corrected a typo I happened to notice...
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 09:38:05 PM by Becq »

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9860
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #112 on: April 22, 2011, 10:30:38 AM »
Sure they'd be angry.  I get angry when someone cuts me off in traffic, but it doesn't force me to run the guy down.  I just ignore it and keep driving...mostly...

@evileyore:  Sorry,  I wasn't trying to lessen your comment, I was trying to make a point that just 'cause they got angry doesn't mean they're damaged in some way or that they lost their free will.  And to go back to my earlier point, if they were ex-religious folk who wouldn't appreciate being bombarded with religious thoughts because doing such a thing would cause them psychological trauma, then perhaps the Sponsor would have chosen a different method.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 10:53:54 AM by Taran »

Offline noclue

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 333
    • View Profile
Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #113 on: April 22, 2011, 10:41:34 AM »
I would like for you to then explain to me how people with no magic, simply high social skills are directly altering the minds of others.
They aren't.
Quote
When one makes a social attack (regardless of how you make it) one is creating a situation. How the person deals with it is always up to them and the better the defense they make against said attack would determine how they deal with the situation (and thus how much social stress they take). Were I to use deceit to tell someone something upsetting to enrage them (which is a social attack) it isn't much different than if I was trying to create a physical situation (with magic or otherwise) that might enrage them like pulling down their pants.

Is there an example of a physical skill like Might being used to make a social attack in this way? It feels like something I might do in SotC, but not so much DFRPG. If someone used magic this way, you would roll the Evocation v. Conviction to determine the amount of social stress? My mind is breaking on the amount of social stress you could dole out with a 30 shift thaumaturgical pantsing ritual.

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9860
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #114 on: April 22, 2011, 10:47:28 AM »
My mind is breaking on the amount of social stress you could dole out with a 30 shift thaumaturgical pantsing ritual.

LOL

Offline evileeyore

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 197
  • PIZZA!
    • View Profile
Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #115 on: April 22, 2011, 01:07:31 PM »
@evileyore:  Sorry,  I wasn't trying to lessen your comment, I was trying to make a point that just 'cause they got angry doesn't mean they're damaged in some way or that they lost their free will.
True.  And I agree, specifically in the case of Soulfire, the Source would be acting in a beneficent manner.

Something to discuss with the table when those types of spells are cast.



Regarding the subtlety/magic discussion, this is discussed some on YS179.  Basically, my interpretation is that it seems to filter down to the idea that a character's emotion-related aspects can be applied to spellcasting.  So, for example, Dresden has the aspect "Not So Subtle, Still Quick To Anger".  This can be compelled in social environments as normal.  In addition to that, though, it could be compelled when Dresden tries to use magic that requires a subtle touch.  Generally, Dresden tends to steer clear of such magic because he knows he's bad at it.  Likewise, such an aspect could be invoked to boost other sorts of magic.  Emotions like anger can feed power into offensive fire spells for example.  Dresden does this, from time to time, too.

I don't get the impression that all spellcasters much specialize toward subtle or non-subtle in this way (the section I referenced mentions that "some" spellcasters have "blind spots" of this sort.
Yup that's exactly how I take it.  Again, I wish the rulebook was better with examples.

My mind is breaking on the amount of social stress you could dole out with a 30 shift thaumaturgical pantsing ritual.


Offline sinker

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2115
    • View Profile
Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #116 on: April 22, 2011, 07:10:48 PM »
Is there an example of a physical skill like Might being used to make a social attack in this way? It feels like something I might do in SotC, but not so much DFRPG. If someone used magic this way, you would roll the Evocation v. Conviction to determine the amount of social stress? My mind is breaking on the amount of social stress you could dole out with a 30 shift thaumaturgical pantsing ritual.

Again, not arguing that wizards should run around pantsing people and dealing ridiculous social damage just arguing that there's plenty of thematic and RAW justification for it. At my table we have a gentleman's agreement that wizards won't start throwing around 8-shift social attacks (in fact I don't think the wizards have ever thrown a social attack, they mostly maneuver and block) so as to maintain the equality of the social conflict. But mostly what I'm saying is that I see that as a house rule (and a really justified house rule at that) not as RAW.

As for how I would deal with it, I would have them defend with whatever social skill they could justify, Discipline to keep their cool, Presence to pull it off with dignity, Deceit, Performance or Rapport maybe if they wanted to play the wounded puppy. In the social arena it's all about face, so it's not about them resisting the pantsing, it's about how they deal with the situation afterwards and how people see them as a result.

As for lawbreaking via sponsored magic there are a couple of layers to my thoughts on the power itself. Firstly when you take lawbreaker part of it is the representation of what doing something like that with a part of you that represents the core of what you are (I.E. Your magic) actually does to you. Seems to me that isn't applicable when you aren't using your magic. However in my opinion there is more to the lawbreaker power than just that one aspect. There is also the part that everyday mortals have to worry about. The part where people aren't programmed to be able to kill/invade/transform one another in such an intimate fashion. That doing so requires justification in one's mind, and once justified it gets a little easier. Once it's easier maybe it requires less justification and you start doing it for other not so good reasons, and eventually you're a madman, killing/invading/transforming just because it has a slight benefit. Seems to me that sponsored magic wouldn't make a difference in that case but that kind of thing would also depend greatly on the person, how they dealt with things and who they were. Also there's the part about a powerful organization trying to kill you.

Finally what I was trying to say when I said that kind of thing might make people angry was not that it might lead to lawbreaking but that it would be an unpredictable block in some cases. What may prevent some people from shooting might also drive others to further hostility. If there was someone there who was very angry at the christian faith they might take that kind of imagery in an entirely different manner than was intended and become more belligerent. Not saying they'd shoot you outright, but they'd definitely be less interested in talking. Of course as a GM the only reason why I'd say that there was someone like that in the crowd was if someone had an aspect that I felt justified said compel.

Offline Kerberos

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #117 on: April 25, 2011, 07:33:49 AM »
Regarding the subtlety/magic discussion, this is discussed some on YS179.  Basically, my interpretation is that it seems to filter down to the idea that a character's emotion-related aspects can be applied to spellcasting.  So, for example, Dresden has the aspect "Not So Subtle, Still Quick To Anger".  This can be compelled in social environments as normal.  In addition to that, though, it could be compelled when Dresden tries to use magic that requires a subtle touch.  Generally, Dresden tends to steer clear of such magic because he knows he's bad at it.  Likewise, such an aspect could be invoked to boost other sorts of magic.  Emotions like anger can feed power into offensive fire spells for example.  Dresden does this, from time to time, too.

I don't get the impression that all spellcasters must specialize toward subtle or non-subtle in this way (the section I referenced mentions that "some" spellcasters have "blind spots" of this sort.

That's partially correct. Dresden does have subtlety issues and Molly does have non-subtlety issues. The rules do however explicitly say that you can't make a move action with Evocation because you'd bang into everything along the way. Controlled movement requires more control AKA subtlety than evocation allows. That's a limitation to all evocation not just evocation by wizards with subtlety issue like Dresden. A reasonable inference can be made that if controlled movement is impossible a number of other things must be impossible as well. What inferences can be made is up for debate, but the subtlety limitation on controlled movement is explicit RAW.

Quote from: noclue
Is there an example of a physical skill like Might being used to make a social attack in this way? It feels like something I might do in SotC, but not so much DFRPG. If someone used magic this way, you would roll the Evocation v. Conviction to determine the amount of social stress? My mind is breaking on the amount of social stress you could dole out with a 30 shift thaumaturgical pantsing ritual.
Well there are several reasons you could use to justify limiting or not allowing something like that.

1) To keep beating the subtlety hose: Can you actually depants someone with evocation? Increase the gravitational pull on their pant without increasing it on anything else? Bear in mind that unless they're wearing sweatpants you might not be able to pull their pants down without unbuckling their belt and unbuttoning the pants (or ribbing them).

Leaving the poor horse on the wayside you could also reasonably argue that.

2) It's a maneuver, not an attack, you've depantsed them, congrats, that places the embarrassed aspect on them, but it's not going to scar them for life like  30 mental stress would.

3) Magic generally involves pseudo-latin or gestures. You start chanting pseudo-latin and gesturing weirdly at someone you're having an argument with and their pants fall of and anyone even slightly magic-savvy will do the math. Even someone non-savvy would probably figure it out even if they rationalized it as some kind of trickery. That means that you could easily face the same kind of social consequences from a magical depantsing as from a physical one.

I tend to see magic in social conflicts as requiring a fair amount of justification and being of fairly limited usage just like other non-social skills. Still possible in some cases just like you could use justify Might or Fists in for example an intimidation attempt.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 07:58:23 AM by Kerberos »

Offline Wolfwood2

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 123
    • View Profile
Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #118 on: April 25, 2011, 03:59:08 PM »
It's apparent in the books that you can do transitory effects on people's minds without it being lawbreaking.  Acting like any magic that affects anyone's mind in any way breaks the Laws is just not supported by the novel text or the rulebooks (or frankly any usefulness running the game, which would trump the other two).

"Keep-away" wards, fear effects, and Harry's lust potion[1] are are examples and they are even discussed in Your Story in the "in-character" asides.  My easy lawbreaking rule of thumb would be that you can mess with people's minds to the extent of maneuvers to place aspects or blocks, but once you get to the point of inflicting mental stress you're lawbreaking.

[1] Particularly this one.  Harry gives an in-world explanation that it's just unlocking latent desires, but in a game-mechanical sense the potion is clearly doing a maneuver to place a mental aspect.

Offline noclue

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 333
    • View Profile
Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #119 on: April 25, 2011, 04:29:13 PM »
2) It's a maneuver, not an attack, you've depantsed them, congrats, that places the embarrassed aspect on them, but it's not going to scar them for life like  30 mental stress would.


This was actually my original argument.

It's apparent in the books that you can do transitory effects on people's minds without it being lawbreaking.  Acting like any magic that affects anyone's mind in any way breaks the Laws is just not supported by the novel text or the rulebooks (or frankly any usefulness running the game, which would trump the other two).

Nor was I suggesting it was lawbreaking, merely that it starts to get into a grey area pretty quickly. The discussion of the lust potion you mention says essentially the same thing, pointing out that it's "walking the line."