How to use Thaumaturgy to mimic Powers

[bobjob]

I'm trying to find a way to use biomantic thaumaturgy to mimic certain powers. I understand that the powers duration would be limited by the amount of shifts dedicated specifically to time and that actually boosting the physical abilities beyond what the human body can withstand would provide consequences of their own, but how would we actually break down the intended powers into shifts to work into the formula?

Essentially what I'm asking is, if a wizard wanted to give himself Supernatural Strength (thus curtailing the second law violation by not giving it to someone else), would that be a 4 shift effect?

[evileeyore]

I think the shifts in that case need to reflect the total number of bonuses being mimiced,  I think.

[Sanctaphrax]

From the as-yet unfinished Player's Guide:

Q: How do power-granting thaumaturgical effects work?
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23179.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20673.0.html
A: I’m not sure exactly. I think that you need to take out your target and add extra shifts equal to the refresh value of the powers that you want to grant. I also think that the person gaining the powers needs to spend fate points equal to their refresh value.

[Haru]

There is an option for temporary powers (YS92). If you really want to take a supernatural power and not just a few aspects to tag, you'd have to spend FATE points equal to the powers cost to get them for one scene. The ritual is then pretty much just the excuse to take that temporary power. I would put the complexity of such a ritual at double the refresh cost of the desired power, though I have read some folks pricing it simply at the refresh cost.

[bobjob]

To me, the concept of using Fate points to confer the temporary powers seems to tarnish the magical nature of thaumaturgy. I like the taken out concept better, personally, with additional shifts to define the power (so 4 shifts can provide a 4 shift effect, 6 shifts for a 6 shift effect and so on). I'm thinking of house ruling it like this:

To give someone with an Endurance of 4 (giving 4 stress boxes) supernatural strength for half an hour, taken out is 5 total shifts, plus 4 shifts for the effect, plus 7 shifts for the power to last one half hour.

5+4+7=16

Now to adjudicate how that affects the character physically after the spell wears off, I would say they are struck with a physical attack of the power plus the time, minus their Endurance and given consequences appropriate to the situation

So 4+7-4 = a 7 shift physical effect that bypasses any toughness powers they may have and armor they may be wearing. Lord help them if they caught other Consequences, because that would hurt.

Obviously it's a house rule, but does that sound fair?

[Haru]

Well I think the fate cost is fair, because that is, essentially, what powers are paid with. It would be the same, if an all powerful entity would grant you the power, you could argue, that, because someone else just gave it to you, it is free, but that is not the case. Thaumaturgy in this case is just the means by which you get access to the power.

You could also just put a couple of "Bulls Strength" aspects on yourself to tag, that would not cost you anything other than the ritual. Any real power obtained should however be paid for in fate points per scene.

Of course you are free to make up your own rules, but this is how I see it.

[bobjob]

I considered the fate point option to acquire temporary powers, but what didn't sit well with me was the fact that you would take consequences for super charging your body beyond what you normally could do. To me that seems like an unfair cost.

[Haru]

I don't think I can follow you here. The temporary powers rule in YS does not require you to take consequences, just spend fate points. I don't see anything unfair about that, unless you mean there should be consequences, but paying fate points is pretty straight forward: you exchange free will for more power, even if it is done temporarily.

[bobjob]

I'm referring to the write up on Biomancy (YS 284)

[Tedronai]

Referring, specifically, to this passage?

Just because
muscles have been supercharged to lift a small
car doesn’t mean they’re built to withstand the
damage that would do; inflicting consequences
on the beneficiary to boost spell effectiveness is
not uncommon (Torn Muscle Tissue, etc.).

That just means that you have plenty of justification to augment the complexity, and thus effect, of the ritual by inflicting consequences as part of the casting.  Not that you MUST do so, just a reminder that you CAN.

[Bruce Coulson]

So far, the only time the wizard in my campaign did this was to grant Aquatic when the group was dredging for a body in the river; I charged 2 shifts for power, 1 shift per person, then x amount for duration.  (It wasn't that important how they got down in the river; only that they do so.  Since the power primarily just lets people function underwater, I didn't feel a major amount of time would be required for plot purposes.)

[Ren]

Hrmm I'll have to point out this thread to one of my players who wanted to work out some kind of Breath Water spell, but if it can be done with Biomancy that will save some time and come in extremely handy for my Miami Campaign...

[Haru]

There was a Post from Iago somewhere, where he proposed to just replace the resources roll to buy scuba gear with a thaumaturgy ritual for the same amount of shifts. That would not grant you the Aquatic power, but it would let you breath under water.

[InFerrumVeritas]

There was a Post from Iago somewhere, where he proposed to just replace the resources roll to buy scuba gear with a thaumaturgy ritual for the same amount of shifts. That would not grant you the Aquatic power, but it would let you breath under water.

See, and this is why one has to think about magic creatively.  I always have myself and the wizard in my group ask ourselves:

Can you do what you want with a skill roll?  Yes.  Shifts=Skill required.

No? Can you do what you'd like via aspects?  Yes.  Use applicable rules, remember that you can take consequences or negative aspects to lower power required.

No?  Can you do what you'd like via evocation?  Yes.  Use applicable rules.

No?  Can you do what you'd like with a power?  Yes.  Shifts to take yourself out.  Now you have access to Temporary power rules.  Spend applicable FP.  Possibly increase shifts necessary for longer duration (?)

No FP available?  Negotiate with DM.  May let you incur FP like debt (that is, they get free compels).  May say no (you weren't able to research the spell).

None of these work?  Then you're probably breaking the game.  Are you trying to time travel or something? (Could possibly be moving zones...Huh...)