Author Topic: Spirit Spell  (Read 10737 times)

Offline HumAnnoyd

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2011, 08:15:44 AM »
 
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The whole idea of forcing someone to make a particular skill check is rather against the spirit of the rules, imho
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Isn't this what you do every time you attack someone with a gun or a sword?  You force them to make an Athletics roll to resist?

I did not intend the spell to be some kind of munchkin rules breaking thing but that seems to be the consensus.  I was simply looking for a creative spell based on the fact that my character is mostly casting Spirit magic. Discipline was what I picked NOT because most characters don't have it (which would seem a bit odd but I will assume you are right) but because it is the skill used to resist fear.  Don't most attack spells stipulate a resistance using Athletics?  Why is making that Discipline a deal breaker? I can see cases being made for using Conviction or Presence under some circumstances but it seems odd to me that this spell would be resisted using Athletics or Weapons as if it was a bolt of lightning or something.  And doesn't that almost make Athletics a kind of uber skill that can resist anything?

In a related note would casting a spell that encased people in an area in thin ice holding them in place for an exchange (or even just making the floor so slippery that they couldn't act or something) be any different as what I am talking about? What would the differences be between that and my character doing it with Spirit magic? Do the elements of magic really matter at all?

How would you simulate casting a spell that caused local spirits or ghosts to appear and start screaming bloody murder in your face?
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Offline Drachasor

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2011, 08:22:41 AM »
Isn't this what you do every time you attack someone with a gun or a sword?  You force them to make an Athletics roll to resist?

An attack with a sword can be resisted by weapons, athletics, fists (with a stunt), or various kinds of magic (both spells and enchanted items).  Guns can't be resisted by weapons by default, but otherwise they have the same list of possible ways to resist them (spells are like guns).  Of course, given circumstances might provide other modifiers or even other skills to be capable of resistance (drive if you are in a car or even on a horse, for instance).  So no, there's no attack that forces someone to use a particular skill to resist.

In any case, blocks simply don't work by specifying a skill to resist them.  That's not how they function, that's not how the rules are written.  You specify an action type or types from the following list:  move, attack, block, maneuver (and veils allow detection).  An area block can stop one of those action types, a single-target block can stop them all.  They do not make someone perform a particular action a certain way, they only resist, in general, that type of action.  If a player can justify using another skill to overcome the block then that is allowable as far as the rules seem to be written.  A GM might allow Might to be used to defend against a magical attack if the player with supernatural strength is holding a metal dumpster to stop the damage.  Particular defense skills are TYPICALLY what is used.

Consider the following passage from 309 in YS:

Quote
The guiding principle for all uses of the rules in this game is that intent precedes mechanics. What this means is that you should always start off by figuring out what the player wants to accomplish, and then determine how to model that using the rules. This might seem like common sense, but it’s easy to get caught in the trap of looking at the various game actions (like attack, block, declaration, maneuver, etc.) as a straightjacket that limits your available options, rather than as a set of tools to express whatever the player wants to try to do.

Many actions map directly to one of the mechanics already, so most of the time this isn’t going to be very hard—a player says, “I want to punch that dude in the face,” and you reply with,“Okay, that’s an attack using Fists, and he’s going to defend with Fists. Roll it.”

Sometimes it isn’t going to be quite so simple, and a player will say something like, “Well, I want to push the table over the landing while he’s charging me, so that he’ll smash into it before he hits me.” You don’t want to refuse the player just because that action doesn’t clearly fall into one of the basic conflict action types (page 197)— especially because that’s a pretty cool move.

In those cases, you’ll have to tease out a more specific intent from the player, which will allow you to make a decision. If the player says, “Yeah, I want to hurt him with the table,” that might be an attack with Might, and the NPC rolls defense normally. If he says, “I just don’t want to get bowled over by the bull charge,” the NPC could get a defense roll with Athletics and you might give the player credit for declaring the table by letting him tag it as a scene aspect. What matters is that you match the mechanics to the player’s intent, not the other way around

Mandating a particular skill as necessary to overcome some sort of attack or block is putting a straightjacket on the enemy, which is just as bad as putting a straightjacket on the attacker.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 08:38:10 AM by Drachasor »

Offline HumAnnoyd

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2011, 08:32:06 AM »
So then any attack can be resisted by any skill if you can create a rationale for it?  The spell I propose could conceivably be resisted by spells, Discipline, Presence or Conviction.  Does that make it bad/wrong since it isn't using spells, Athletics, Weapons or Fists (with a stunt)?
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Offline Drachasor

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2011, 08:42:04 AM »
So then any attack can be resisted by any skill if you can create a rationale for it?  The spell I propose could conceivably be resisted by spells, Discipline, Presence or Conviction.  Does that make it bad/wrong since it isn't using spells, Athletics, Weapons or Fists (with a stunt)?

Yeah, I think it is inherently awful if you make a block which flat-out stops certain actions unless you magically resist with some completely unrelated skill.  THAT IS NOT HOW BLOCKS WORK.  You overcome that with discipline...ok...what do the extra shifts on your roll do?  Nothing?  You aren't moving from your discipline check nor are you attacking with your ax...so how is it blocking that?  What you've done is essentially setup a very complicated compel making it so they can't attack.  If you want to do that, make a maneuver and invoke it, but the guy can buy out or they can make any kind of maneuver they want (which makes sense) to overcome your maneuver.

If you want to stop attacks with a block, then ANY attack can overcome that block.  If you want to stop movement with a block, then ANY that results in movement can overcome that block.  Etc.  That's how blocks work and they work that way for a very good reason.  If you could declare any random skill the resisting skill, then you can cherry pick the skills to be the worst ones the opponent has, thereby making it so they can't do anything.  That's not fair, and more damning, that's not fun.

Offline HumAnnoyd

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2011, 08:57:50 AM »
Sigh. I guess I just don't get it.  I will read the book again and see if I can grok this stuff.

I like FATE but at times it just seems too...obtuse for me.  Every time I think I finally have a handle on something someone explains to me that I am completely wrong and here is why.   Makes me wonder if it just isn't a good game for me.  Or I could just need to get some sleep... ;)
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Offline Drachasor

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2011, 09:03:26 AM »
Sigh. I guess I just don't get it.  I will read the book again and see if I can grok this stuff.

I like FATE but at times it just seems too...obtuse for me.  Every time I think I finally have a handle on something someone explains to me that I am completely wrong and here is why.   Makes me wonder if it just isn't a good game for me.  Or I could just need to get some sleep... ;)

It's simple.  You want to block attacks, then you say "this is a block against attacks".  Your result works as a defense roll against any attack the affected target(s) makes.  If you block movement, then likewise it works as a resistance against any attempt to move.  If it blocks maneuvers, then any attempt to make a maneuver will be resisted by the block.  Same with blocking a block or detection.  The roll to attempt the action in all cases has to overcome the strength of the block.  If the block strength is 5, and the person gets a result of 6, then they have just 1 shift of success.

Blocks work against types of actions, and they resist that TYPE of action (move, attack, maneuver, block) no matter how the enemy tries to do it.  I can see making this work in a more limited fashion, such as just resisting moves in one direction or all but one direction, but in any case if the block interferes with a type of action A, then anything that you can use or justify to do A can overcome the block.

It's an important part of the balance that blocks are overcome by what they are attempting to stop.  Otherwise you could make the "Spell of Auditing" which requires they pass an academics check to do anything.  Or if they are good at academics, then make the "Engineering Puzzle of the Mind" spell which requires craftsmanship, etc.  That way lies broken things where the big bad has to have 5+ skills in everything otherwise you pick the one skill he is bad at to stop him.  That's why the rules are written as they are regarding blocks, imho.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 09:05:52 AM by Drachasor »

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2011, 11:32:25 PM »
I will read the book again and see if I can grok this stuff.

I like FATE but at times it just seems too...obtuse for me. 
One thing to keep in mind as you reread - FATE in general and DFRPG in particular strive to create a story through game play.  It's not trying to simulate reality or some fantasy take on a world.  The shared narrative / consensus trumps static mechanics.  Hence the 'effects first, mechanics later' approach.

Going back to the basic text on blocks: 
  • You can block one or more of four action types (YS210)
    • Attacks
    • Blocks
    • Maneuvers
    • Movement
  • Group / zone blocks should only block one action type while individual blocks may be broader (YS210)
  • Anything done to do the blocked action type is typically capable of breaking the block (YS210 and again on YS211 under Grapples)
  • The block's narrative / type must fit the situation / story to be effective (YS211)
  • Actions targeting the cause of the block may also break it (YS211 under Grapples)
Hope that helps.
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Offline HumAnnoyd

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2011, 06:07:25 PM »
Quote
Hope that helps.
It does.  Thank you.

I finally get it after reading over the rules again.  I think I was mostly just punch drunk from an abnormally difficult work schedule (deadlines are an evil that even Harry can't beat). 

I guess the best thing for this spell would be to say it is a manuever adds an aspect like "Blind Terror" that can be compelled.  This makes it fairly useless as far as I can tell since I won't have very many Fate points as a Wizard and won't really be able to compel that many targets.  I guess it is pretty good against thugs and the like though since my fellow players could tag the aspect to help themselves out in a variety of ways. 
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Offline newtinmpls

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2011, 06:44:21 PM »
"But how would Athletics, Might or Weapons help you with resisting a horrific apparition rushing right at your face like it is about to rip it off while screeching with a soul numbing wail?  I guess I am getting just a bit confused at how open to interpretation these rules really are."

To answer the actual question here; if the person attempts combat, makes "what would normally be contact" and then goes right through, they could be realizeing that the horrific apparitions in question really don't have much in the way of combat skills - at this point they become an annoyance (the block is still doing 'something') but the character is not totally occupied/stopped by them.

dian

Offline crusher_bob

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2011, 08:34:57 AM »
Remember that you can make maneuvers that effect zones as well.  So, in theory, you can place an aspect on everyone in the zone, not just one guy.

It can be a bit cheesy, so think of whether you'll allow it in your game or not.

Example:
Wizard guys gets the drop on 3 thugs, and decides to use a zone wide maneuver.  He's got a base power of 6 for evocation, so he does a power 4, 1 zone maneuver.  Each thug resists the maneuver separately, so you could only effect some of the thugs, but you'd have a free compel against every single thug that failed.

-------------

If you allow this, you should probably let people with really high skills do the same trick.  For example, someone with intimidation 5 takes a -2 on his intimidation result to try to intimidate everyone in the room individually (so they'd each get an intimidated aspect).

Offline Drachasor

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2011, 11:23:33 AM »
Remember that you can make maneuvers that effect zones as well.  So, in theory, you can place an aspect on everyone in the zone, not just one guy.

It can be a bit cheesy, so think of whether you'll allow it in your game or not.

Example:
Wizard guys gets the drop on 3 thugs, and decides to use a zone wide maneuver.  He's got a base power of 6 for evocation, so he does a power 4, 1 zone maneuver.  Each thug resists the maneuver separately, so you could only effect some of the thugs, but you'd have a free compel against every single thug that failed.

-------------

If you allow this, you should probably let people with really high skills do the same trick.  For example, someone with intimidation 5 takes a -2 on his intimidation result to try to intimidate everyone in the room individually (so they'd each get an intimidated aspect).

Hmm, technically there aren't any rules for that.  You can use 2 shifts for blocks to hit all allies in the same zone or 2 shifts on an attack to hit everything in a zone, but maneuvers and counterspells don't have that option.  You can do a maneuver on a scene or the like (as the example, just 3 shifts for strong winds on a whole scene), but it doesn't seem like there is a way, going by the rules, to do it to each target individually.

Offline LokiTM

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2011, 06:15:10 PM »
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I guess the best thing for this spell would be to say it is a manuever adds an aspect like "Blind Terror" that can be compelled.  This makes it fairly useless as far as I can tell since I won't have very many Fate points as a Wizard and won't really be able to compel that many targets.  I guess it is pretty good against thugs and the like though since my fellow players could tag the aspect to help themselves out in a variety of ways. 

Don't forget the free tag to compel. If this was a spray attack to set up the aspect you should be able to compel every one of the affected targets at no additional cost. To continue it you would either spend fate points (if the aspect was sticky) or cast again to continue the effect.

Offline HumAnnoyd

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2011, 10:02:12 PM »
Well since I only have 5 points of effort to deal with I am going with a block against attacks in a zone that can be resisted by whatever skill is being used to attack with. 

•ANIMUS TEMPESTAS (Spirit Storm)
TYPE: Spirit evocation, Block
POWER: 3 +2 for Area
CONTROL: Discipline 3 +1 for Ring and +1 for Spirit Control Specialization
DURATION: One exchange
OPPOSED BY: Attack Skill
EFFECT: Summons local spirits to harrow and harass all targets in an area. Block 3 vs Attack actions in one zone.
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Offline Aminar

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2011, 11:56:24 PM »
I see nothing wrong with the spell.  It's beautifully cinematic, and functionally seems effective.  Admittedly I would go with Discipline or Conviction to resist.  From there I would have it put a fog style aspect on the field, essentially giving -2 to spot a person at a cost of 2 power from the block.

As far as a fog effect going away once anybody has resisted it, the rational way to handle that is that a block like this goes away for a the resisting person once they have resisted.  Remember the story is more important and logical breaches due to rules kill stories more than slightly OP spells. 

Offline Drachasor

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Re: Spirit Spell
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2011, 01:12:31 AM »
I see nothing wrong with the spell.  It's beautifully cinematic, and functionally seems effective.  Admittedly I would go with Discipline or Conviction to resist. 

The thing wrong with it is you don't get to choose what the enemy can resist with.  That path leads to brokenness is one really good reason to go with the rules on this.

Another thing to remember is that a block ALWAYS "hits."  They have to overcome the block once you put it up and so it reduces the effectiveness of whatever type of action they are trying to do no matter what (unless somehow the action they want to do is even harder to achieve than overcoming your block).