Author Topic: The letter not the spirit of the Law  (Read 26121 times)

Offline toturi

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Re: The letter not the spirit of the Law
« Reply #120 on: February 05, 2011, 05:27:47 AM »
Considering it uses terminology like "a new version that is twisted by the violation of that Law of Magic" and "replace another different aspect until all your character's aspects have been subverted by his descent into dark magic." (emphasis mine), I don't think it's supposed to imply sunshine and happiness (unless it's the "chuck you into the sun" sunshine and "happiness in mandatory, Citizen" happiness)
So subvert the twisting of your Aspects to reflect the good you do using dark magic.
With your laws of magic, wizards would pretty much just be helpless carebears who can only do magic tricks. - BumblingBear

Offline Peteman

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Re: The letter not the spirit of the Law
« Reply #121 on: February 05, 2011, 06:15:00 AM »
So subvert the twisting of your Aspects to reflect the good you do using dark magic.

Okay with that in mind, I now have to have a Chronomancer with "Let's Do the Time Warp Again!" as an Aspect.

Offline Drachasor

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Re: The letter not the spirit of the Law
« Reply #122 on: February 05, 2011, 06:57:50 AM »
Breaking them habitually twists the character's Aspects to reflect the Law that was broken. It doesn't mean that the change has to be towards evil. Furthermore, remember that you can switch out an Aspect every minor milestone.

Let's look at what happens when you break a law of magic:

1.  You gain the Lawbreaker ability, increasing your ability when breaking the law again, this also reflects a loss of free will, potentially even removing your free will completely.

2.  "The effects of being a Lawbreaker go beyond the simple application of these abilities, however. Once a character has chosen to cross the line and break a Law of Magic, that decision is a part of him however you look at it. Consider replacing or rephrasing one or more of his aspects to show this. Even without such an alteration, that choice to step a little bit into the world of black magic becomes an important lens to view the character’s aspects through, and the GM and player should start pursuing story elements that bring the issue front and center."

3.  If you break it thrice, you MUST change an aspect to reflect how it has twisted you.

So yes, it is pretty clearly saying that the new aspect has to be something that would encourage you to break the law again.  And while yes, you can change aspects, and potentially even abilities if the GM lets it, doing that requires a justified reason to do so, so moving away from that aspect would properly require that you are fighting these inclinations...which is eventually represented as you losing that twisted aspect.

All this reflects the special nature of the Laws of Magic...they twist you into breaking the laws further and into doing them more easily (via compels on twisted aspects).  They don't necessarily bind your future, but they do pose something you'd have to fight against and overcome.  Quite different from say killing a person or three in self defense or the defense of others with a gun or a sword which needn't do that kind of damage.

Again, (I just like hammering this point in general) that's different than the Laws of Magic being about morality.  That's just how magic, used that particular way, works.  Similarly, the principles of evolution can imply that certain vile behaviors (like replacing the sperm of others with your own sperm at fertility clinics) will increase the presence of your genes in the gene pool and hence you'll have more genetic offspring than others and in so much as your genes influence you being such a bastard, you'll offspring may well prosper in a similar manner (there are less savory examples, but I wanted to avoid them).  Evolution isn't an ethical theory however, and passes no moral judgments on anything...having more offspring or being more "fit" does not operate on ethical principles (even if there is some overlap); that's just how biology works.

Offline BumblingBear

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Re: The letter not the spirit of the Law
« Reply #123 on: February 05, 2011, 08:43:38 AM »
Let's look at what happens when you break a law of magic:

1.  You gain the Lawbreaker ability, increasing your ability when breaking the law again, this also reflects a loss of free will, potentially even removing your free will completely.

2.  "The effects of being a Lawbreaker go beyond the simple application of these abilities, however. Once a character has chosen to cross the line and break a Law of Magic, that decision is a part of him however you look at it. Consider replacing or rephrasing one or more of his aspects to show this. Even without such an alteration, that choice to step a little bit into the world of black magic becomes an important lens to view the character’s aspects through, and the GM and player should start pursuing story elements that bring the issue front and center."

3.  If you break it thrice, you MUST change an aspect to reflect how it has twisted you.

So yes, it is pretty clearly saying that the new aspect has to be something that would encourage you to break the law again.  And while yes, you can change aspects, and potentially even abilities if the GM lets it, doing that requires a justified reason to do so, so moving away from that aspect would properly require that you are fighting these inclinations...which is eventually represented as you losing that twisted aspect.

All this reflects the special nature of the Laws of Magic...they twist you into breaking the laws further and into doing them more easily (via compels on twisted aspects).  They don't necessarily bind your future, but they do pose something you'd have to fight against and overcome.  Quite different from say killing a person or three in self defense or the defense of others with a gun or a sword which needn't do that kind of damage.

Again, (I just like hammering this point in general) that's different than the Laws of Magic being about morality.  That's just how magic, used that particular way, works.  Similarly, the principles of evolution can imply that certain vile behaviors (like replacing the sperm of others with your own sperm at fertility clinics) will increase the presence of your genes in the gene pool and hence you'll have more genetic offspring than others and in so much as your genes influence you being such a bastard, you'll offspring may well prosper in a similar manner (there are less savory examples, but I wanted to avoid them).  Evolution isn't an ethical theory however, and passes no moral judgments on anything...having more offspring or being more "fit" does not operate on ethical principles (even if there is some overlap); that's just how biology works.

This is an excellent post but I am warning you that it may go over some readers' heads.

I mean this without malice, but after having spent about 6 months lurking on these boards and a month posting, I can say with full assurance that some players see the first law as "killing is bad, mmmkay?" and don't pursue it any further than that.
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline bitterpill

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Re: The letter not the spirit of the Law
« Reply #124 on: February 05, 2011, 10:00:52 AM »
This is an excellent post but I am warning you that it may go over some readers' heads.

I mean this without malice, but after having spent about 6 months lurking on these boards and a month posting, I can say with full assurance that some players see the first law as "killing is bad, mmmkay?" and don't pursue it any further than that.

I think most people on the site don't think killing is bad they think it is 'evil', the difference being that 'bad' is only something that causes harm and 'evil' is something that is morally wrong (even though on other issues they would disagree on what morality is). Most people get the fact that the laws of magic and infact all laws are not about Morality but about Practiticality societies need structure and laws and petty distinctions (class, race etc) provides this structure so societies can function. Without the Laws of Magic the White council would have very little real purpose and function so the mere existence of the Laws strengthens the white council in both purpose and position. The reason most polticians try to get the public to venerate the law (in my opinion) is because its power of the LAW is the source of the authority of Government (though I still think the power of governments comes more from their Military rather than their morality).     
"Apathetic bloody planet, I've no sympathy at all"  Vogon Captain

Offline BumblingBear

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Re: The letter not the spirit of the Law
« Reply #125 on: February 05, 2011, 10:13:35 AM »
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline bitterpill

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Re: The letter not the spirit of the Law
« Reply #126 on: February 05, 2011, 10:40:20 AM »
Oh yer sorry not into south park think its mediocre prefer family guy.
 
Though drugs are kind of good as whole I would be dead without the wonders of asthma drugs and even most narcotic drugs have thier medical uses and if there is ever an apocalyspe then if 'mankind is to survive the ones that are left alive are going to need' Drugs. So all we need the power of drugs to bring about the world revolution and hapiness will reign transcendant. Im trying to see if I can get any more references to drug in an utterly undrugged state in a post which on the whole isn't at all about drugs .  

« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 10:47:21 AM by bitterpill »
"Apathetic bloody planet, I've no sympathy at all"  Vogon Captain

Offline BumblingBear

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Re: The letter not the spirit of the Law
« Reply #127 on: February 05, 2011, 11:17:00 AM »
Oh yer sorry not into south park think its mediocre prefer family guy.
 
Though drugs are kind of good as whole I would be dead without the wonders of asthma drugs and even most narcotic drugs have thier medical uses and if there is ever an apocalyspe then if 'mankind is to survive the ones that are left alive are going to need' Drugs. So all we need the power of drugs to bring about the world revolution and hapiness will reign transcendant. Im trying to see if I can get any more references to drug in an utterly undrugged state in a post which on the whole isn't at all about drugs .  



Huh!? 

...better lay off them.  :)
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline Warpmind

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Re: The letter not the spirit of the Law
« Reply #128 on: February 07, 2011, 11:32:32 PM »
Interesting debate here...
I'd just like to add a few observations of my own:
Using magic on nonhumans in manners normally subject to the Laws of Magic will not necessarily get you de-noggined by a Warden, or get you tagged as a Lawbreaker. But, do consider that whatever you violated might have friends who have friends who call in a case under the Unseelie Accords... Which, in some ways, are even worse.
I mean, sure, the little fairy you just nuked with a spell isn't human - but whichever court he had affiliations with - or even just an unaligned smallfolk with White Council connections (like a member of the Za-Lord's Guard, for example) could file a formal complaint to have you extradited to be subject to the whims of some Fair Folk noble... Which, most likely, would be a prolonged experience in an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and so on.

Also, why the adamant stance that Fair Folk lack free will? Certainly, I'd argue that there's plenty of evidence - even if it's not stated explicitly - that though they're quite strongly ruled by binding agreements and the like, they ARE able to decide for themselves what they want to do, so long as it's not contrary to their very nature. Not unlike people, really.
I mean, if you call out for a Seelie Noble, for example, without their True Name, they might decide that they're not interested, and refuse. And to quote the rulebook, "There is no guarantee the summoned entity
will behave how you want it to. You will have to bargain with the entity to achieve your desires."
Think about it. How can something lacking free will have the ability to bargain for itself?

...Just my 2 hundredths of the geographically appropriate currency...
...You know the character is special, when reloading his frying pan is the right thing to do in a battle on the high seas...

Offline Bruce Coulson

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Re: The letter not the spirit of the Law
« Reply #129 on: February 07, 2011, 11:53:08 PM »
In the Dresdenverse, breaking the Laws of Magic (if you're a mortal spellcaster) has a special significance, above and beyond that of a normal mortal breaking a Law.  (1 and 7 can both be broken by a non-spellcaster.)

All I was pointing out was that breaking those Laws, even if you weren't a spellcaster, should be reflected by some change in the character.  (Changing an Aspect would seem to be the way to go here.)
You're the spirit of a nation, all right.  But it's NOT America.

Offline MrobFire

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Re: The letter not the spirit of the Law
« Reply #130 on: February 08, 2011, 01:18:12 AM »
This is an excellent post but I am warning you that it may go over some readers' heads.

I mean this without malice, but after having spent about 6 months lurking on these boards and a month posting, I can say with full assurance that some players see the first law as "killing is bad, mmmkay?" and don't pursue it any further than that.

I think we've already seen some people possibly missing the point of that post. But Drachasor, I think you've got a really brilliant idea there. Essentially, as I see it, people are confounding two sets of laws. The legal laws that the White Council enforces; and the natural laws resulting from the pseudo physics governing magic. In the novels Dresden has repeatedly stressed that Magic is governed by physical rules such as the rule of equal and opposite reactions. So, while I can take a gun and kill someone, accept that it was necessary, and move on, that is not possible with magic. If I use magic to kill myself the very nature of magic will force a change in my mind equal to the change that my mind created in the world. The White Council, in an attempt to prevent wizards from descending into dark magic (i.e. those forms of magic which can pervert a mage's very nature and destroy their free will), was formed so as to constrain wizards' power. This is clear from
(click to show/hide)
. Basically, the legal laws of magic aren't moral at all, they are simply designed to prevent wizards from being corrupted by their corresponding natural laws of magic (although the rule about the outer gates might be an exception to this).

Offline Drachasor

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Re: The letter not the spirit of the Law
« Reply #131 on: February 08, 2011, 02:43:58 AM »
Also, why the adamant stance that Fair Folk lack free will? Certainly, I'd argue that there's plenty of evidence - even if it's not stated explicitly - that though they're quite strongly ruled by binding agreements and the like, they ARE able to decide for themselves what they want to do, so long as it's not contrary to their very nature. Not unlike people, really.
I mean, if you call out for a Seelie Noble, for example, without their True Name, they might decide that they're not interested, and refuse. And to quote the rulebook, "There is no guarantee the summoned entity
will behave how you want it to. You will have to bargain with the entity to achieve your desires."
Think about it. How can something lacking free will have the ability to bargain for itself?

Well, I personally don't think Free Will makes any sense.  We're just biological machines after all.  I suppose one could define free will as "making decisions internally unbounded by certain external coercion" but that's pretty murky water (there's a lot of gray area even with something like that).  However, it is important in the setting and the game, and they define it...after a fashion, with Refresh and Fate Points, so when I speak of being X has Free Will in the Dresdenverse, that's what I personally mean.  The setting rather defines humans as being pretty special in this regard, which does smack one as some sort of Fantastic Racism, however as part of the Game System it is a nice way to empower Pure Mortals so it has merits in that regard.

In any case, "free will" isn't a needed part of most ethical systems.  Torturing,* killing, mind controlling, transforming, and so forth faeries, godlings, spirits, etc is still bad.  There's nothing ethically special about humans there.  And yeah, if you are mean to any random thing that crosses your path, eventually you'll probably piss off someone powerful who is friends with them (or their lord or whatever).  Morgan does have something of a point in the first book about what Harry does to Toot Toot...it isn't a particularly nice thing to do to someone....though, with how Faeries like Toot Toot are, I wouldn't say it is cruel either (it's just unfriendly, probably).

*Remember, torturing is bad, but torturing with magic doesn't break any Law for what it is worth.

In the Dresdenverse, breaking the Laws of Magic (if you're a mortal spellcaster) has a special significance, above and beyond that of a normal mortal breaking a Law.  (1 and 7 can both be broken by a non-spellcaster.)

All I was pointing out was that breaking those Laws, even if you weren't a spellcaster, should be reflected by some change in the character.  (Changing an Aspect would seem to be the way to go here.)

Well,  Let's see, we can break One easily.  Two can be done by barbaric surgical practices (but it is most often done in a nice way with reconstructive surgery, replacement limbs, etc), and we're advancing here all the time.  Three we are on the tip of breaking and at least in a gray area with studies of the mind involving fMRIs and such.  Four we've been breaking for probably thousands of years...enthralling is pretty easy for most people; give someone minimum food and water, significant physical labor, and toss in some propaganda and niceness.  It's a pretty proven strategy.  Five...medicine has been working on that for years, and we have greatly improved the ability to bring someone back after their heartbeat and breathing have disappeared.  What was death 10 or 20 years ago, isn't necessarily death now.  Not entirely the same thing as creating zombies, but certainly it would be a gray area by the Law, I think.  We're also working on greatly extending the human lifespan, and that too would also at least be a gray area (confounding mortality).    Now, Six is currently theoretically impossible to achieve.  As for Seven, that just requires research, apparently, so anyone can do that and actually Break a Law, unlike the other things.

I think we've already seen some people possibly missing the point of that post. But Drachasor, I think you've got a really brilliant idea there. Essentially, as I see it, people are confounding two sets of laws. The legal laws that the White Council enforces; and the natural laws resulting from the pseudo physics governing magic. In the novels Dresden has repeatedly stressed that Magic is governed by physical rules such as the rule of equal and opposite reactions. So, while I can take a gun and kill someone, accept that it was necessary, and move on, that is not possible with magic. If I use magic to kill myself the very nature of magic will force a change in my mind equal to the change that my mind created in the world. The White Council, in an attempt to prevent wizards from descending into dark magic (i.e. those forms of magic which can pervert a mage's very nature and destroy their free will), was formed so as to constrain wizards' power. This is clear from
(click to show/hide)
. Basically, the legal laws of magic aren't moral at all, they are simply designed to prevent wizards from being corrupted by their corresponding natural laws of magic (although the rule about the outer gates might be an exception to this).

Yeah, that's how I see it.  The Council just enacted the Laws of Magic to reflect the Physical Laws of Magic where doing certain things with magic stains your soul.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 02:54:29 AM by Drachasor »

Offline toturi

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Re: The letter not the spirit of the Law
« Reply #132 on: February 08, 2011, 02:56:14 AM »
Physical torture doesn't break the Laws. Even if you did use magic.

But mental torture, eg. psychic assault, may break some Laws.

I think beyond the issue of the legal and metaphysical Laws of Magic, there is also basically 2 opposing viewpoints here. Some people think that it is not only possible to circumvent the legal Laws but also the metaphysical ones as well. Other people think that it is possible to circumvent the legalities, but not the metaphysics.
With your laws of magic, wizards would pretty much just be helpless carebears who can only do magic tricks. - BumblingBear

Offline bibliophile20

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Re: The letter not the spirit of the Law
« Reply #133 on: February 08, 2011, 03:06:59 AM »
I think beyond the issue of the legal and metaphysical Laws of Magic, there is also basically 2 opposing viewpoints here. Some people think that it is not only possible to circumvent the legal Laws but also the metaphysical ones as well. Other people think that it is possible to circumvent the legalities, but not the metaphysics.
Agreed.  I think we need a WoJ on this if we're ever going to resolve it one way or the other.  Until then... agree to disagree?
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Offline Drachasor

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Re: The letter not the spirit of the Law
« Reply #134 on: February 08, 2011, 03:22:39 AM »
Well, obviously you can circumvent the legal laws...just don't get caught (or perhaps if you are a changeling or something, you might be out of their jurisdiction).

I don't see how you'd circumvent the Physical Law aspect (it isn't right to call them metaphysical, imho, since the changes are detectable as far as the game is concerned...stains your soul which is an observable quantity);  you can't sidestep gravity.

I thought the point of contention was how to precisely define the laws and what counted.  Hence I proposed some tests about that which I thought would help illuminate issues and clear things up.