Author Topic: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation  (Read 13876 times)

Offline jybil178

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Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2011, 04:18:51 AM »
Another thing it can do is healing. I wrote up a healing spell for my Angelic Knight based pretty directly on the Reiki healing spell. Of course the character was all about taking physical consequences (as backlash) to power her spells so it was a bit on the high power side.


Well, if you and your GM are ok with that powerlevel of a spell... I was about to get into how the spell was changed quite a bit to be easier, but then I looked over everything and saw that its a lot closer then i thought... But the ability to just go and tack blacklash, and it not matter, cause you can fix it right back up just seems... wrong...  And plus, even though you may be doing thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation, I'd think you wouldn't be able to add in your evocational focus items into it.. I would think you'd need to add in a Thaumatergical foci of some sort, or that one would be needed..  But thats just my own, personal standing point.. If you and your GM are ok with it, then by all means.  Now, might I ask what kind of magic you are using in general, or if it is pure Soulfire sponsorship magic, just like Unseelie or Seelie magic?
my 2 cents

Offline sinker

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Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2011, 06:38:47 AM »
For one thing I can't target myself (says so in the targets) so any backlash is mine for as long as it lasts. Secondly, one of the things that I've come to understand is that it's not "thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation," It's "thaumaturgy with evocation's methods and speed" (Evil Hat's words, not mine) which means it's not just faster thaumaturgy, it's evocation that is capable of thaumaturgic effects. Now I guess that's up to interpretation, however that was the call our group made.

It was sponsored magic: Soulfire, but I always hate that Dresden's use of soulfire seems to be the only possible interpretation so I was playing it a little differently (More sponsored and more direct essentially).

Offline BumblingBear

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Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2011, 08:41:04 AM »
I like your interpretation.

Unfortunately, it would not work for my character.  :(

------------------------------------------------------

To everyone:

I have actually come up with something my character /could/ do that would be thematically appropriate.

Curses.  Specifically ones meant to bleed out an enemy or cause them pain.

I was thinking that this could mechanically make their defense rolls or maybe attack rolls at -2.  I'd prefer defense rolls for x amount of rounds.

How would one go putting a spell together like that?  3 shifts for the effect and x shifts for the duration?
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline toturi

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Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2011, 09:27:08 AM »
Does Soulfire actually have "thaumaturgy with evocation's methods and speed" in its description?
With your laws of magic, wizards would pretty much just be helpless carebears who can only do magic tricks. - BumblingBear

Offline Drachasor

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Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2011, 09:39:12 AM »
I like your interpretation.

Unfortunately, it would not work for my character.  :(

What is your sponsored magic?

To everyone:

I have actually come up with something my character /could/ do that would be thematically appropriate.

Curses.  Specifically ones meant to bleed out an enemy or cause them pain.

I was thinking that this could mechanically make their defense rolls or maybe attack rolls at -2.  I'd prefer defense rolls for x amount of rounds.

How would one go putting a spell together like that?  3 shifts for the effect and x shifts for the duration?

You can't do something broad-spectrum like that necessarily.  Not for striking the guy, anyhow, as best I understand it.  You can give them an aspect, that can be tagged once, giving a +2 to hit.  The rules a little vague here, I think, but I believe you need 3 shifts of power or their conviction, whichever is more, then you'd roll to hit.  This should last for a scene or until tagged, I believe.  4 shifts makes it sticky so it can be invoked and compelled, shifts beyond that make it last longer....at least this is my understanding.  I believe, since Thaumaturgy lets you place multiple aspects with one spell, you should be able to do this as an evocation, but you need to apply the shifts for each Aspect separately (so 6 shifts for 2 aspects that can each be tagged once and then they are gone, 8 shifts for two sticky aspects).  The rules don't quite go over how to handle this...but I think you'd make one discipline roll to apply both.

If someone is badly injured, you could inflict a curse as a Consequence (if they aren't injured, then you aren't likely to get enough shifts).  Great way to get a long lasting consequence for cheap...if they are REALLY BADLY injured, you could even make them take the curse as an extreme consequence.

You could also apply a Block on their actions.  You could apply a curse that acts as a block to the enemy's ability to attack, move, maneuver, OR block (you pick one).  Once they beat the block though, it's gone.  Hmm, I THINK you could make such a block into armor though, using evocation rules (evocation blocking is written as just shields primarily, so this is unclear).  That would make it so the enemy inflicted less damage on any attack, and it would stick around.  Doing this wouldn't be that different from using evocation to do it though.

Offline Drachasor

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Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2011, 09:40:15 AM »
Does Soulfire actually have "thaumaturgy with evocation's methods and speed" in its description?

No, it's pretty lame.  Given how great it is at creating things, they should have made it really good at conjuring stuff that sticks around....but maybe they thought that was OP.

Offline BumblingBear

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Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2011, 09:40:36 AM »
Does Soulfire actually have "thaumaturgy with evocation's methods and speed" in its description?

Pretty much all sponsored magic works that way.

I doubt it's actually under the "soulfire" heading in the book, but the rules/mechanics for casting instant thaumatergy using sponsored magic works the same as an evocation spell.

This is part of my indifference to the ability.  Most good thaumatergy spells take LOTS of shifts in order to accomplish.

Casting using evocation grants a wizards access to from 1 - 6 shifts most of the time without taking undue mental stress.
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline BumblingBear

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Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2011, 09:45:52 AM »
What is your sponsored magic?

Pele, goddess of volcanoes, violence, lightning, and dance.

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You can't do something broad-spectrum like that necessarily.  Not for striking the guy, anyhow, as best I understand it.  You can give them an aspect, that can be tagged once, giving a +2 to hit.  The rules a little vague here, I think, but I believe you need 3 shifts of power or their conviction, whichever is more, then you'd roll to hit.  This should last for a scene or until tagged, I believe.  4 shifts makes it sticky so it can be invoked and compelled, shifts beyond that make it last longer....at least this is my understanding.  I believe, since Thaumaturgy lets you place multiple aspects with one spell, you should be able to do this as an evocation, but you need to apply the shifts for each Aspect separately (so 6 shifts for 2 aspects that can each be tagged once and then they are gone, 8 shifts for two sticky aspects).  The rules don't quite go over how to handle this...but I think you'd make one discipline roll to apply both.

If someone is badly injured, you could inflict a curse as a Consequence (if they aren't injured, then you aren't likely to get enough shifts).  Great way to get a long lasting consequence for cheap...if they are REALLY BADLY injured, you could even make them take the curse as an extreme consequence.

You could also apply a Block on their actions.  You could apply a curse that acts as a block to the enemy's ability to attack, move, maneuver, OR block (you pick one).  Once they beat the block though, it's gone.  Hmm, I THINK you could make such a block into armor though, using evocation rules (evocation blocking is written as just shields primarily, so this is unclear).  That would make it so the enemy inflicted less damage on any attack, and it would stick around.  Doing this wouldn't be that different from using evocation to do it though.

If all that is accurate, why would I not be better off just placing a maneuver using athletics or something?  That does not cause me mental stress.

It seems like for my character, "thaumatergy at the speed of evocation" is super lame.  The only thematically appropriate thing I could do that would actually help and be worth the effort would be to apply two temporary aspects at the same time.  The problem is that to do so, I'd have to take /MORE/ than 1 mental stress at this point.

That would be dumb.
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline toturi

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Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2011, 09:56:13 AM »
Pretty much all sponsored magic works that way.

I doubt it's actually under the "soulfire" heading in the book, but the rules/mechanics for casting instant thaumatergy using sponsored magic works the same as an evocation spell.

This is part of my indifference to the ability.  Most good thaumatergy spells take LOTS of shifts in order to accomplish.

Casting using evocation grants a wizards access to from 1 - 6 shifts most of the time without taking undue mental stress.
I got the impression that unless that a sponsored magic specifically has thaumaturgy at evo speed and method, it doesn't. IIRC, nearly every sponsored magic has that phrase, the only exception is Soulfire.
With your laws of magic, wizards would pretty much just be helpless carebears who can only do magic tricks. - BumblingBear

Offline BumblingBear

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Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2011, 10:02:03 AM »
I got the impression that unless that a sponsored magic specifically has thaumaturgy at evo speed and method, it doesn't. IIRC, nearly every sponsored magic has that phrase, the only exception is Soulfire.

I guess that would make sense....

But since soulfire is all about creation and bolstering things, it doesn't seem like a healing spell would be inappropriate.
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline Drachasor

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Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2011, 10:19:13 AM »
Ahh, ok, stuff you can do easily.

Infuse yourself with rage/violence, placing multiple maneuvers on yourself that you can tag.  1 mental stress and you can have two aspects to tag.  Also, you could give yourself the power of The Dance (great with the ladies and in some other social settings).  Imho, it is 3 power for each aspect you can tag (once tagged, that particular aspect goes away).

You can create wards easily enough, whether traps/mines or merely ones that strike back (standard ward..but that seems to fall under violence to me, personally).  Traps and mines are definitely a go though, and they last until sunrise by default.

One thing you can do is add aspects to a scene, so you can have lightning or fire going around making things dangerous (which can be tagged or invoked).  That's not as easy to do with an athletics roll (which tends not to cover a whole zone).  Oddly enough, the rules seem to indicate doing it to a zone and doing it to a person is just as difficult.

You could do a block on a whole group of bad guys, if you invoke some aspects, it could be pretty darn high.  Flavor it as making them have to do everything to a dance which makes it far harder to hit anything...I think thaumaturgy should make this have a longer duration assuming no breach.  Theoretically, you could make it into an armor effect, reducing the damage of everyone.

Divinations to look for power lines (lightning), volcanoes (ok, unlikely to be useful), information on dances, and violence can be done at a moment's notice, not requiring minutes to do.  Most of the DCs for this are easy.

If your performance isn't great, you can clearly substitute a magic spell for dancing.

You should be able to force a ghost out as an evocation, so that it is vulnerable to violence.

You can enrage things, filling their minds with violence.  You could turn a strike or protest into a riot.  Verbal infighting with bad guys into blows potentially.  Make a maneuver on one of them "you are filled with violence" and compel it with a fate point.

You could conjure lava to make a zone barrier.

You have quite a bit of options.

Offline Drachasor

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Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2011, 10:20:39 AM »
I guess that would make sense....

But since soulfire is all about creation and bolstering things, it doesn't seem like a healing spell would be inappropriate.

On the fence about healing.  Certainly it should be good at creating lasting things on the fly.  By RAW though, it isn't good at these things.  It lets you have ALL of thaumaturgy and fire effects.  Pretty lame there, but the power against toughness and holiness is nice.

Offline BumblingBear

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Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2011, 10:55:06 AM »
Ahh, ok, stuff you can do easily.

Infuse yourself with rage/violence, placing multiple maneuvers on yourself that you can tag.  1 mental stress and you can have two aspects to tag.
Or I could do it with a roll and not have to spend any mental stress.  Granted, I'd have 1 less tag, but 2 stress vs a potential 12+ stress is not a very good tradeoff for one mental stress.

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Also, you could give yourself the power of The Dance (great with the ladies and in some other social settings).  Imho, it is 3 power for each aspect you can tag (once tagged, that particular aspect goes away).
Or once again, I could roll athletics for "fancy dance moves" or something similar.



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You can create wards easily enough, whether traps/mines or merely ones that strike back (standard ward..but that seems to fall under violence to me, personally).  Traps and mines are definitely a go though, and they last until sunrise by default.
I covered that in my OP:  

1. Creating a quick and dirty circle or ward

Not impressed.

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One thing you can do is add aspects to a scene, so you can have lightning or fire going around making things dangerous (which can be tagged or invoked).  That's not as easy to do with an athletics roll (which tends not to cover a whole zone).  Oddly enough, the rules seem to indicate doing it to a zone and doing it to a person is just as difficult.
I can already do that with standard evocation (which I have).

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You could do a block on a whole group of bad guys, if you invoke some aspects, it could be pretty darn high.  Flavor it as making them have to do everything to a dance which makes it far harder to hit anything...I think thaumaturgy should make this have a longer duration assuming no breach.  Theoretically, you could make it into an armor effect, reducing the damage of everyone.
Once again - evocation already has this covered.

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Divinations to look for power lines (lightning), volcanoes (ok, unlikely to be useful), information on dances, and violence can be done at a moment's notice, not requiring minutes to do.  Most of the DCs for this are easy.
Now this one may actually be useful.  My GM gave me the aspect "Near your goddess" or something like that in my last fight since a Temple of Pele was like a mile away.  This gave me a passive +1 to all of my attack rolls in combat, which was awesome, not OP, and totally thematically appropriate.
(Big hand to my GM if he reads this.  That was awesome.)

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If your performance isn't great, you can clearly substitute a magic spell for dancing.
I covered this in my OP too:

2. Replacing a really bad skill with a 4 to 6 shift skill for one roll

It's potentially useful.  My character tends to let others do the talking in social situations.  He just gets ripped on or forced to take drugs.

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You should be able to force a ghost out as an evocation, so that it is vulnerable to violence.
Ok, this is the second interesting possibility you brought up.  I will have to give that one more thought.
However, couldn't I attack one with spirit evocations anyway?  I'm not sure.

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You can enrage things, filling their minds with violence.  You could turn a strike or protest into a riot.  Verbal infighting with bad guys into blows potentially.  Make a maneuver on one of them "you are filled with violence" and compel it with a fate point.
I could probably do that with the magic skill roll too.  Like for say... intimidation or something.

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You could conjure lava to make a zone barrier.
My evocation is stronger.

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You have quite a bit of options.

Yeah, but the "thaumatergy at the speed of evocation" thing still seems kind of lame.  I primarily took sponsored magic for the character development and potential plot arcs that may come of it.

If I had just spent those 3 refresh in refinement, my (combat oriented) character would probably be much, much more powerful.  I've yet to see any /significant/ evidence to the contrary.

It gives me a few more options in game, which I like.  For combat though, the uses seem limited.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 11:00:36 AM by BumblingBear »
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline Drachasor

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Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2011, 11:27:49 AM »
Or I could do it with a roll and not have to spend any mental stress.  Granted, I'd have 1 less tag, but 2 stress vs a potential 12+ stress is not a very good tradeoff for one mental stress.

You cannot place multiple aspects on yourself in one exchange without Thaumaturgy; it's flat-out impossible.  You can only do it during combat with a magic item or sponsored magic.

Or once again, I could roll athletics for "fancy dance moves" or something similar.

Eh, I'd give a big penalty if I was the GM and someone was trying to use Athletics instead of Performance for dancing.  The two are quite different.

[on wards]I covered that in my OP:  

Not impressed.

Invoke or tag some aspects and you are looking at making an extremely powerful block.  That's huge if you have to run away.

I can already do that with standard evocation (which I have).

Granted.

Once again - evocation already has this covered.

Evocations have short durations and you increase them by 1 exchange per shift spent just on duration.  Thaumaturgy lets you go up the time chart per shift, so they can last a much longer time.

I covered this in my OP too:
...
It's potentially useful.  My character tends to let others do the talking in social situations.  He just gets ripped on or forced to take drugs.

Don't underestimate the usefulness of being able to do more in social settings.


Ok, this is the second interesting possibility you brought up.  I will have to give that one more thought.
However, couldn't I attack one with spirit evocations anyway?  I'm not sure.

I think so, but making it vulnerable means EVERYONE can attack it and it should be vulnerable to anything physical such as maneuvers, environment aspects, etc.

I could probably do that with the magic skill roll too.  Like for say... intimidation or something.

Subtly influencing someone's mind (talk to your GM about whether it violates a Law or not if that's a concern) is nice because they won't necessarily be able to tell you had anything to do with it.  It lets you create internal squabbles without them being able to point a finger at you.

My evocation is stronger.

You'd be casting it like an evocation, my read is that evocation focuses and bonuses for Pele Magic (a Pele focus for instance) would apply to Thaumaturgical Effects done like Evocation.  So it can be just as strong.  Like a ward, this can be really nice for running away or you can use it to split up the enemy.

Yeah, but the "thaumatergy at the speed of evocation" thing still seems kind of lame.  I primarily took sponsored magic for the character development and potential plot arcs that may come of it.

If I had just spent those 3 refresh in refinement, my (combat oriented) character would probably be much, much more powerful.  I've yet to see any /significant/ evidence to the contrary.

If you never do Thaumaturgy normally, then sure, you are right.  It would have been better to take refinement for more focus, etc.  Thaumaturgy is pretty useful though, and there are some big rituals you could do even with that someone narrow focus, as well as magical items you can make.

Offline BumblingBear

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Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2011, 12:22:30 PM »
^^^ You made some excellent points, thank you. :)

I have some things to think about now.

Making all of my enemies dance as an armor effect on all of their attacks actually sounds pretty awesome now that I think about it.

Theoretically, that would be like... 4shifts for an armor of 2 (-2 to all of their attack rolls I believe since it happens before contact) and then 1 shift per escalated time frame via the table in YS for thaumatergy, right?

Actually, it would be 2 more shifts for a zone...

Actually, this would be a really expensive spell.  We're look at 4+2+2 minimum which is 8 shifts.  Ouch.

Never mind. :(
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 12:35:38 PM by BumblingBear »
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.