Author Topic: biomancy with summer magic question.  (Read 2867 times)

Offline arete

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biomancy with summer magic question.
« on: January 27, 2011, 05:49:55 PM »
What is the difficulty of buffing a physical stat to myithic?    Also does having the inhuman version of the attribute make. Difference in the number of shifts needed to perform the spell?
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Offline devonapple

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Re: biomancy with summer magic question.
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2011, 06:07:40 PM »
What is the difficulty of buffing a physical stat to myithic?    Also does having the inhuman version of the attribute make. Difference in the number of shifts needed to perform the spell?

There is a section on giving yourself Powers via Thaumaturgy, in think in the section about making a "Flying Spell." It's a sidebar conversation. I'm blanking on the page.

At the very least, you have to pay a Fate Point for each Refresh of the temporary Power (in this case, the Toughness powers) you provide, in addition to 1 shift of Complexity per Refresh point. I believe you may also have to "take out" the recipient, which may mean another 25-40 shifts depending on Endurance (or less, depending on your GM's generosity).

As such, yes, there would be a cost difference between Mythic, Supernatural and Inhuman.
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Offline Drachasor

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Re: biomancy with summer magic question.
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2011, 07:35:42 PM »
Page 92.  But they constantly talk about how it should basically never happen.  What complexity it is to transform yourself isn't clear (though whatever it was, you'd ALSO have to pay fate points equal to the refresh cost for a temporary power).  I don't think the game talks about how many shifts you need for that....shifts equal to the refresh cost seems way too low (4 shifts for Supernatural Strength...less for recovery?  Seems too cheap).  The magic should be harder than that.

It also seems like doing this regularly is a bit against the spirit of the rules.

Easier to give yourself large skill value for a check (that is equal to the skill value, so Might 10 for one might check would be a shift 10 spell).

Offline zaq.hack

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Re: biomancy with summer magic question.
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2011, 07:45:48 PM »
Personally, I would put this on a geometric scale if you are using Thaumaturgy or Evocation to accomplish it. Any "maneuver" spell is a default of 3 shifts - something that would put an aspect on you or change your nature. I would think that is a "minimum" starting place, and then I would say you want 1 Fate worth of ability - add 1 shift for a 4 total. Then double and add for each additional. 2:3+3, 3:7+3, 4:15+3, etc. Mythic strength would be 6:63+3 ... likely beyond a reasonable thaumaturgy working without "Blood of David Banner."

At least ... that's how I'd do it.

Edit: Oh, and duration. I'd add 1 shift for every rung on the time ladder you wanted this buff to last. You get "instant" by default, but if you want to be the Hulk for a few hours, it's going to cost you another 7-10 shifts.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 07:47:31 PM by zaq.hack »
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Offline devonapple

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Re: biomancy with summer magic question.
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2011, 07:46:25 PM »
Page 92.  But they constantly talk about how it should basically never happen.  What complexity it is to transform yourself isn't clear (though whatever it was, you'd ALSO have to pay fate points equal to the refresh cost for a temporary power).  I don't think the game talks about how many shifts you need for that....shifts equal to the refresh cost seems way too low (4 shifts for Supernatural Strength...less for recovery?  Seems too cheap).  The magic should be harder than that.

It also seems like doing this regularly is a bit against the spirit of the rules.

Easier to give yourself large skill value for a check (that is equal to the skill value, so Might 10 for one might check would be a shift 10 spell).

One of the main playtesters, Rick Neal, basically said to add a power to someone you have to "take out" the target, which means as good as kill them:
1. Overcome their Stress track (3-5)
2. Overcome their Conviction (shifts equal to Conviction +5) - may be optional for a willing target
3. Fill up their Consequence slots (20 shifts)
4. then the shifts to buy whatever you needed to buy. So anything transformative is 30+ in Complexity.

Other folks think that's way too much for being able to fly, or see in the dark, or something else. But the Transformation and Disruption rules should be a good guide if you want to actually give someone a power. Another good way is to use an Item of Power (someone on the boards had a Flying Hockeystick they rode like a witch would a broomstick).
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Offline zaq.hack

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Re: biomancy with summer magic question.
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2011, 07:51:21 PM »
Another possibility is that this much 'change' to a character's essential nature is not trivial. If you want to add a power, it's possible that person is 'obsessed' with it. Or, maybe you are the Hulk and lose some other capabilities. Maybe you lose your free will a bit if you normally would by taking that power and become something of an NPC for a time. There are lots of ways to discourage this type of "gamesmanship" that the GM has, I would say ... and it certainly seems like you should discourage it.
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Offline Kommisar

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Re: biomancy with summer magic question.
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2011, 08:02:41 PM »
A big factor is if the target is voluntarily going through with the transformation.  If he is, he simply concedes before taking any consequences and, therefore, reduces the cost of the spell.

NOW, past the cost of giving yourself powers through transformation magics remember that there are other issues once you actually pull of the spell/ritual and now have your Mythic Strength/Recovery/Toughness or whatever.  Namely, your mind is not wired and programed to control such a body.  Got mythic strength this morning?  Have fun making your coffee.  And if you didn't take, say, Mythic Toughness to go with it have fun shaving or taking a leak.  Ouch.

There is a good reason you don't see the Big Boy Wizards of the Senior Council running around doing this sort of stuff even though they more than have the power and knowledge to pull it off.

Offline Drachasor

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Re: biomancy with summer magic question.
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2011, 08:39:11 PM »
Another possibility is that this much 'change' to a character's essential nature is not trivial. If you want to add a power, it's possible that person is 'obsessed' with it. Or, maybe you are the Hulk and lose some other capabilities. Maybe you lose your free will a bit if you normally would by taking that power and become something of an NPC for a time. There are lots of ways to discourage this type of "gamesmanship" that the GM has, I would say ... and it certainly seems like you should discourage it.

Well, what if flying isn't done by adding wings, but instead by giving someone a cloud they can ride on?  Or it is done via making their overly large cloak work like wings?  There are gray areas for many of the powers.  Hmm, I SUPPOSE one could treat a flying thaumaturgy as allowing something otherwise impossible.  You can fly like you were operating a helicopter without needing the helicopter.  That's just granting a drive skill and this works much like tracking something you can't actually track.  Might well be too cheap though.

Quote
One of the main playtesters, Rick Neal, basically said to add a power to someone you have to "take out" the target, which means as good as kill them:
1. Overcome their Stress track (3-5)
2. Overcome their Conviction (shifts equal to Conviction +5) - may be optional for a willing target
3. Fill up their Consequence slots (20 shifts)
4. then the shifts to buy whatever you needed to buy. So anything transformative is 30+ in Complexity.

Other folks think that's way too much for being able to fly, or see in the dark, or something else. But the Transformation and Disruption rules should be a good guide if you want to actually give someone a power. Another good way is to use an Item of Power (someone on the boards had a Flying Hockeystick they rode like a witch would a broomstick).

The rules explicitly say this is for a permanent change, not a temporary one.  Regarding a temporary power...they don't say much at all:

"Transforming yourself is either about producing a temporary, short-term, specific spell effect with an obvious shift cost, or it’s about acquiring new powers with spent refresh (or temporarily—see page 92—using fate points and tags)."

And page 92 just says this shouldn't happen much (and that if you don't have the fate points to cover the refresh cost, you can owe the GM compels).  I'll grant a lot of this stuff can be done with specific spell effects, but there is also a lot of it that can't.  While requiring 2 fate points for a temporary -2 refresh cost ability is a bit expensive, we still don't know how difficult it is to work that spell at all.  The guidelines they provide don't seem useful for determining this at all -- they seem more about curses, temporary aspects, and full and permanent transformations.

Offline Tsunami

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Re: biomancy with summer magic question.
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2011, 09:39:50 PM »
[...] And page 92 just says this shouldn't happen much (and that if you don't have the fate points to cover the refresh cost, you can owe the GM compels).  I'll grant a lot of this stuff can be done with specific spell effects, but there is also a lot of it that can't.  While requiring 2 fate points for a temporary -2 refresh cost ability is a bit expensive, we still don't know how difficult it is to work that spell at all.  The guidelines they provide don't seem useful for determining this at all
That's because the specific spell complexity is not really relevant in this case. Taking out a willing target takes only a few shifts. If you really need a shift number, use Stress + endurance skill and maybe add the refresh cost of the powers you want, but it really doesn't matter since basically the target concedes anyways.

The really limiting factor on acquiring powers through thaumaturgy is not the complexity of the spell. It's the fate points you need to pay to cover the refresh cost.


Offline arete

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Re: biomancy with summer magic question.
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2011, 10:50:21 PM »
Well I was push over when I first looked this issue over.  I gave it a diff of 3+refresh+time.  Thanks guys.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 08:10:17 AM by arete »
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Offline devonapple

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Re: biomancy with summer magic question.
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2011, 10:58:00 PM »
Well I was push over when I first looked this over issue.  I gave it a diff of 3+refresh+time.  Thanks guys.

Maybe a 13+Refresh+Time would be difficult enough, but not so prohibitive as having to "take out" the recipient. Perhaps the recipient can even contribute to the Lore Declaration by taking one or more Consequences related to the transformation!
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline Drachasor

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Re: biomancy with summer magic question.
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2011, 11:49:36 PM »
Maybe a 13+Refresh+Time would be difficult enough, but not so prohibitive as having to "take out" the recipient. Perhaps the recipient can even contribute to the Lore Declaration by taking one or more Consequences related to the transformation!

Yes, my only concern with saying it is trivial if the person is willing is that giving someone the power to fly or the like should NOT be trivial in the Dresden-verse, otherwise everyone would be doing it all the time.  If any schmuck can do a Complexity 5-8 ritual and fly around, then a lot of people would do it.  Having a high complexity and requiring fate points as per the rules seems like the proper way to go.  Remember, you don't HAVE to pay those fate points, you can instead take out a loan of future compels from the GM if you don't have the "cash" on hand to spare.

Overall what you have there seems like a fairly good model, though I'd worry about adding time in.  I'd say the effects, as per the guidelines on page 92, should be limited to a scene...perhaps two if you double the refresh cost component and require a renewed fate point expenditure for the next scene.  At a certain point it should just be easier to do a full transformation on someone if you want to give them powers, I'd think.  I do like the idea of consequences though, perhaps someone can choose to use a consequence to make the transformation easier OR to pay for a fate point (per consequence).

Offline sinker

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Re: biomancy with summer magic question.
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2011, 02:50:35 AM »
Another thing to note Arete is that if someone's using transformation to change someone else's physical power from inhuman to mythic then they're also breaking the second law.

Offline arete

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Re: biomancy with summer magic question.
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2011, 02:53:38 AM »
The big reason this came up is because I have a summer knight, and I don't enforce the laws of magic on sponcered magic
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Offline sinker

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Re: biomancy with summer magic question.
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2011, 02:56:56 AM »
Oh, right. It's right there in the tread title too. I'm good at this game...  :)