"rare" character templates

[Richard_Chilton]

Just wondering how others feel about rare character templates...

We have templates for the Knights of the Cross (3 of them exist at any one time), the Fairy Knights (2 of them), and White Court Virgins (rare as hen's teeth).  I can't help feeling that those three would have been better off in the Our World book rather than the Your Story one.

When I'm talking to people about the game I usually point out that the Knight of the Cross template is an example of "Guy with Item of Power" template, the Fairy Knights are powerful "Envoys of other powers", and White Court Vampires are examples of that rare, tragic, snowflake character.  Then again, my games tend to be more "this how you affect your town" rather than "this is how you change the world" types of stories.

Anyone else feel the same way? Or am I out in left field on this one.

Richard

[TheMouse]

I'm happy that they're there. Those templates act as suggestions should you want to make up conceptually similar characters.

Also, White Court virgins aren't vanishingly rare. Every single White Court vampire was at one point a virgin. Many might not get out and engage in zany adventures, but at any given moment there are lots of them.

[Richard_Chilton]

I have problem with WC virgins - at least those who are late teens or older.  They just don't make sense to me.  I've explained why in posts on the spoiler board and in a couple of posts here, so if you've read those posts this is me repeating myself.  If you haven't, here's why White Court Virgins don't really make sense to me.

Looking at the vampire power structures:
The Black Court breed like undead rabbits.  It literally takes only minutes to go from "Alive and well and wondering who just walked in the room" to "dead" to "Yes my master I live again for you".

The Red Court takes longer - usually (Susan didn't take that long) - but they can still rebuild their numbers in a short time.

The White Court can't build its number quickly.  18 - 19 years after you decide you need to have a new WCV around you've got this teenager and for some reason you don't make sure that nature takes its course? You don't hire a hooker and send it to your son's room as a birthday present? You don't pick out your daughter's first lover (making sure that the first time will be everything you need it to be) and ensure that it's hormones, not love, when she has her first meal?

What, you aren't a die hard schemer? Then how do you stay alive in the White Court?

In the one book where we met a White Court virgin she is central to some of her father's schemes, to the point where he turns his back on a wizard to check on her when it looks like she might be in trouble.  My reading of that book was that the only reason she was still a virgin is because of that Death Curse, that her father wanted to break that curse before she transformed so he could be her second "lover" and break her (the way he had broken his other daughters).

Meanwhile, there's the echo of a hunger in the back of the White Court virgin's mind.  Sometimes he/she zones and almost feeds without making a conscious decision to.  Then's human nature to consider - we are drawn to emotions.  Whether it's teen drive for sex or the need to comfort a scared person (these two can combine at scary movies) there's the instinct to reach out to other people.  An instinct that can unleash the demon inside of a White Court virgin.


Which is a long way of saying that I can't see there being many more White Court virgins than there are knights of the cross.  Maybe a few more, maybe less.  Most of the ones that exist at any point in time would be mid teens or younger and I don't think they get their powers at least until adolescence, which means most White Court Virgins are effectively the same as regular kids.

Richard

[jburneko]

Why does "rarity" in the world matter?

Assuming, you're right that there's only a few White Court Virgins in existence at a time but one of your players wants to be one of those few, where's the problem?

Right now in my game I have a Knight of the *Autumn* Court as a PC and up until a few sessions ago he was the ONLY surviving member of said Court.  Another PC is a Fallen Star and depending on where we choose to go with it she might very well be the ONLY one of her kind.

I don't understand what the issue with rarity is?

Jesse

[toturi]

I suppose it depends on what kind of game the GM wants to run and the players want to play. If the game has the spotlight firmly fixed on the PCs and the Dresdenverse has to conform around them, then there is no big deal. However if we take the books as a fixed reference point for the game world, then there is where you'd hit a snag, there are only so many Knights of the Cross, there are only so many Knights of the Fae Courts.

I think for a RPG that has its roots in a novel series, if within the novels, it has been established that a certain type of character is exceedingly rare or has only a very small fixed number, then it may be better if those character types are better off as NPCs.

[bitterpill]

Though there are fixed points in the literature say there are three knights of the cross and one winter night and one summer knight there is still plenty of wiggle room for example there was a spring court and a autumn court so thats another two possible knights. There are hundreds of potential relics of Christ including the Spear of Longinus, there are also many Jewish and Islamic potential relics not to mention the thousands of potential relics from other gods.So though a character cannot play the fourth knight of the cross he can play someone with the exact same powers and mission. 

[KOFFEYKID]

I find it sort of strange to say that "White Court Virgins" are too rare to play when overall, Wizards are very rare as well. Infact, most of the templates available are pretty rare in the larger world. Perhaps there are a few percentage points in the overall difference of how rare these things are, but the fact still remains.

[Amseriah]

Our games tend to be on the more epic side of things, I am one of those silly people who enjoyed dnd 3.x more as you got closer to lvl 20.  As such, our first DFRPG that we played started at 10 refresh:  2 Wizards one of them a warden, the Summer Knight, and an Emissary of Power:  the Sacred Medicine (of Native American tradition).  Our adventures are going to definitely take us beyond our city.  I unsurprising-ly think that the "rarer" Templates are very fun to play with and shouldn't be NPC only.  I understand issues with canon, but I am of the mindset that what is written in the novels can be fudged a little for a good game.  Afterall, in the game Harry isn't the hero, you are.

[danthehut]

I like the option of these classes being available, but I see them more as templates (well thats exactly what they are called) for adjusting them to your own game with their own magic items.. ie knight of the cross lie character with a similar magical artifact..

Also white court virgins seem like they could totally be more numerous... but still knowing who they are. How many white court virgins dont want to turn completely and fight it?

[Richard_Chilton]

How many White Court vampiric schemers will leave the choice up to their child?

How many proto-White Court Vampires have the strength of will needed to resist?

I could be wrong, but when I read the book I got the impression that Thomas isn't seen as a typical in anyway.  That the normal course of things is to give into the demon and enjoy your life as vampire.

Richard

[bitterpill]

There are going to be any number of White Court Virgins around but I think he is argueing that because of human nature and White Court Parents who are scemers by rote the number of WCV who are older than about 14 are going to be very rare, PCing a kid can be annoying but not impossible.

[MijRai]

Calling the White Court Virgins as rare as hen's teeth seems pretty accurate to me. Every hen has a tooth when born to break out of their shell . I'd say they are pretty common, at least for some time. Think of them as a Red Court Infected, fighting the inevitable, usually without prior knowledge until the big event happens. They also know someone can save them, which is more then what one of the Infected can say. Now, life isn't as bad as some greasy blood-sucking bat-fiend, but still. I could easily see a part of White Court scheming to involve weakening other Houses by showing their kids what they could turn into, and trying to scare them away so they could try to find their True Love or something.

As far as how old they are when the Hunger shows up, it doesn't seem to me like they are 14. More around the age of 18-22. Inari's Hunger woke up 'early', and she was old enough to perform in an adult video.

[bitterpill]

I just assumed it would be around puberty rather than adulthood when whites powers started acting up due to Hormones rule 14 never equate biology with Magic.

[Richard_Chilton]

I'd say they are pretty common, at least for some time.

I agree - all the children should be WCVV - but I don't think they have the powers listed in the book until the demon manifests.  Effectively they would be the same as any other child (just with a different potential).

Think of them as a Red Court Infected, fighting the inevitable, usually without prior knowledge until the big event happens. They also know someone can save them, which is more then what one of the Infected can say.

They may not know that - the one published example didn't.

As far as how old they are when the Hunger shows up, it doesn't seem to me like they are 14. More around the age of 18-22. Inari's Hunger woke up 'early', and she was old enough to perform in an adult video.

It's been a while since I read Small Favors, but didn't one of the WCV say something like

(click to show/hide)

"I've been wanting to drain you dry since <icky age>"

- or something like that?

I think the bit about the demon awaken has to do with the amount of food around.  If Inari's Prom Date had scored a home run then I'm pretty sure that the Demon would have said "Nice - I'm out now.  Shame about him dying like that.".  But her father made sure that things like that didn't happen (because he wanted to break her afterward)... When the book is happening the demon is starting to thrash around saying "feed me!", taking the choice from her (and her father).

And while there's a group of RCV infected fighting the curse you never hear about a "WCV who won't turn" group.

But of course all of this is the subject impressions of a fictitious world - so there's plenty of room to compromise.

Richard

[Drachasor]

It's been a while since I read Small Favors, but didn't one of the WCV say something like

(click to show/hide)

"I've been wanting to drain you dry since <icky age>"

- or something like that?

(click to show/hide)

Pretty sure Lara was talking about killing her...

(click to show/hide)

Lara’s burned black right hand, withered, it seemed, down to bones and sinew, reached
slowly, sensually around Madeline’s straining abdomen. Slowly, very slowly, Lara sunk
her fingertips into flesh, just beneath the floating rib on Madeline’s left flank. Madeline’s
face contorted and she tried to scream.
Lara shuddered. Her shoulders twisted. And she ripped an open furrow as wide as her
four fingers across Madeline’s stomach, pale flesh parting, as wet red and grey
things slithered out.

(click to show/hide)

That's what Lara does RIGHT after she makes the comment.  It's not the feeding she's talking about, it's the ripping her apart she meant as best I can tell.