Magical Creation and an Alternate Summoning System

[devonapple]

Updated to accommodate feedback from Fred Hicks at Evil Hat:

The general Complexity guideline for making something with Conjuration seems to be to use enough shifts to kill that which you would call up. It's a good guideline for Summoning as well, but in this case, if you want to build a construct of some sort, or an AI, this is what you do instead of a Thaumaturgic "Contacts" roll.

So it would work as follows:
1) Stat out what you want to build.
2) Figure out the number of shifts needed to take it out completely. One stress track, all consequences, plus one.
I would opt to pick the best stress track that the creature has, since we want the resource, not the body count, and this will mean you are generally paying for the Physical stress track of a physical combatant, and the Mental or Social stress track for something summoned to provide knowledge or guidance).
3) Tack on a difficulty surcharge equal to twice the refresh cost of the creature's abilities (Stunts and Powers).
4) Add Complexity for the duration - figure out with your GM whether you start from a Scene, a Day, or some duration in between.

This could be appropriate for AIs, Golems, Constructs, maybe even NPC Familiars. Demons and other spirits would still be a Contacts roll, but the system can probably handle them being Summoned using these Guidelines as well.

This method ignores skill points, except insofar as one of the creature's skills will be determining the Stress Track you would have to overcome. But it does take Powers into account.

Edit: Note that if you are summoning something with Toughness Powers, you might seem to be paying twice - once for the power, and once to overcome the added boxes on its Stress Track. Umm... how do folks feel about that?

[Sanctaphrax]

Honestly, I think that's a terrible method. It encourages minmaxing and discourages sanity. Seriously, skills are more important than stress tracks or powers/stunts. What's more, that method makes summoning the weakest possible creature a 23 complexity ritual.

We can do better.

I was thinking that we could make people buy skill points in increments of five. Stunts might be best priced according to the number of stunts and powers that you have already. Since stunts don't stack, the first few should be more expensive than the rest. I like the idea of buying up the skill cap.

I approach minions as a stunt that lets you roll Contacts to hire people. No custom power would be needed to use a ritual for this.

[devonapple]

Honestly, I think that's a terrible method. It encourages minmaxing and discourages sanity. Seriously, skills are more important than stress tracks or powers/stunts. What's more, that method makes summoning the weakest possible creature a 23 complexity ritual.

It may indeed be terrible for Summoning. But how do you feel about this as a method for *building* something completely new, like an AI or a Golem?

The rules already specify Summoning = a Thaumaturgic Contacts roll, and ideally the creature's exact stats should be known to the GM alone. The player may get a True Name or some other lead, and hope to have assessed how powerful to make the warding/binding spells, but to make Summoning in DFRPG the same as it works in Hero system seems to be sidestepping the spirit of the DFRPG setting. Summoning is fraught with danger, and Fred's feedback about summoning is that it generally belongs in the province of the GM, rather than coming up with an exhaustive and potentially abusable Summoning system.

[Sanctaphrax]

Fred is right when he says that summoning should generally be managed by the GM. He's also right when he says that a summoning system would be abusable. But a bad system like that one is worse than no system at all, and having no system isn't as good as having a set of reasonable guidelines.

Skills should cost something, and a random Imp shouldn't get a full consequence track. But even ignoring those issues, I dislike the stress system. I won't use it myself, and I want something that helps me pick a reasonable complexity for a summoning and binding. Which is why I'm here, trying to work out a set of general rules.

PS: I'm not trying to be harsh here. I just really don't like that system.

[devonapple]

PS: I'm not trying to be harsh here. I just really don't like that system.

Of course! No problem.

Let's put imps and demons and pixies aside for a moment. Just forget about Summoning altogether for this next bit.

[Edit: this is based on Fred Hicks' recommendation for creating constructs like Cassius' snakes, Victor Sells' scorpion, and the Wardhounds. Summoning wasn't the intent.]

How do you feel about these rules for making something new, like an AI, familiar or Golem. This would be Conjuration or Crafting , not Summoning. Summoning a Pixie using these rules is prohibitive, but how about making one's NPC familiar?

[Sanctaphrax]

Sorry, should have been more clear. I don't like this system for anything. Same reasons as previously stated.

By the way, I think that we are setting the complexity too high. Here's a revised system, designed by me to make it difficult to twink. It should work for either summoning or creating creatures, but since it hasn't been tested in any way at all please don't take it too seriously.

Skills cost 2 complexity per 5 points.
Skill cap costs complexity equal to the additive factorial-like thing that you suggested divided by 2 (round up).
Stunts cost 1 complexity apiece for the first 3, 1/2 apiece after that.
Powers cost 1 complexity per refresh point. Some powers may be prohibited, others may cost extra (especially when combined effectively).
Duration costs are normal. Bear in mind that some creations might be effectively permanent, with duration representing lifespan.

How does that look? It's still expensive, but a bit less so.

[UmbraLux]

How does that look? It's still expensive, but a bit less so.

Why do you think the system suggested by Hicks is too expensive? 

Regarding the system you propose - looks like a summoned / created being with fifteen skill points, and three points in powers or stunts would cost six shifts plus duration - that correct?  It seems too easy to me.

[devonapple]

Skills cost 2 complexity per 5 points.
Skill cap costs complexity equal to the additive factorial-like thing that you suggested divided by 2 (round up).
Stunts cost 1 complexity apiece for the first 3, 1/2 apiece after that.
Powers cost 1 complexity apiece. Some powers may be prohibited, others may cost extra (especially when combined effectively).
Duration costs are normal. Bear in mind that some creations might be effectively permanent, with duration representing lifespan.

So, going by the Will-o'-the-Wisp:

Skills: it has 15 points of skills; 15/5 = 3; 3 * 2 = +6 shifts of Complexity.

Skill cap: Highest skill is Good (+3); so (3+2+1) divided by 2 = +3 shifts of Complexity.

Stunts: there are none.

Powers: it has 6 Powers with a combined total of 9 Refresh.
I'm not sure if you would rule that as 9 shifts of Complexity for the *total Refresh*,
or 6-ish shifts of Complexity for the *number* of Powers.
In this case I'll be conservative and opt to choose +9 shifts of Complexity.

Duration: until the next sunrise/sunset unless otherwise indicated: +0 shifts of Complexity.

Total: 18 shifts of Complexity (15 if we count Powers instead of Refresh spent on powers).

Does that match your proposed system, Sanctaphrax?

[Sanctaphrax]

Yes, that's it exactly. It isn't cheap, but then again it shouldn't be when the creature in question has supernatural power to match a submerged character. The Will O The Wisp might deserve a discount for its highly suboptimal power list, but that's a GM call and not relevant to the construction of guidelines.

I meant to count refresh spent on powers, as you thought. Editing my post now to say that.

I think that the system proposed by Hicks is too expensive because it is impossible for a creature to cost less than 23 complexity under it.

[devonapple]

I think that the system proposed by Hicks is too expensive because it is impossible for a creature to cost less than 23 complexity under it.

It is expensive, but in some cases... one *IS* creating a whole new creature.

Then again, I'm now reviewing the Zombie Animation ritual on YS 301:

"Zombie Animation
Animating a zombie is a two-spell process: a summoning and a binding. First, the caster must summon a spirit to inhabit the corpse he wishes to animate, and then the caster must bind the spirit to his will.
Type: Thaumaturgy, summoning then binding
Complexity: Varies for both;
the summoning is typically 6-10 (based on conflict against the spirit’s Conviction),
and the binding is even higher, often 10-14 (again, based on conflict against the spirit’s Conviction and desired duration)
Duration: The summoning is only for a scene, but the binding is of variable duration.
Effect: One spirit is summoned and bound to one corpse, animating it and binding it to the caster’s will.
Variations: Call up additional shifts of power to animate more zombies.
Notes: The caster must provide an audible “heartbeat” for the duration of the binding, most frequently a drumbeat."

So that can range from 16-24 total shifts (split between two rituals, though), for just the one Zombie. I'm not sure how to figure a Spirit's Conviction though...

[Sanctaphrax]

That's a lot, maybe a bit too much. Then again, zombies are pretty dangerous. It's not absurd, especially when you consider that the binding complexity includes duration.

Hicks' method actually gives reasonable results as long as you summon something of at least moderate power, ignore extreme consequence slots, have a decent match between powers and skills, and no toughness powers. But that's too many restrictions for me.

Here are some more difficulties from my method. I don't know whether they are reasonable or not.

Zombie: 16 (assuming a functional skill pyramid)
Uberzombie: 26
Zombie Triceratops: 34
Poisonous Demon: 14
Imp: 9
Demon Lord: 88
Demonic Collossus: 51
Thug Demon: 24
Guardian Statue: 22

[devonapple]

That's a lot, maybe a bit too much. Then again, zombies are pretty dangerous. It's not absurd, especially when you consider that the binding complexity includes duration.

Should we read that as it taking a Scene to call up the spirit, but after binding it to the Zombie it stays put for the duration of the Binding? Or would the Summoning duration ideally need to match the Binding Duration?

I could see it argued either way.

[UmbraLux]

I think that the system proposed by Hicks is too expensive because it is impossible for a creature to cost less than 23 complexity under it.

Well, if I'm interpreting your suggestion correctly, a 10 shift ritual would get you an entity with 5 skill points, a cap of +3, and 3 points of powers.  That close to correct?

If so, a decent summoner should be able to call two or three each morning.  Let's say he calls up a 'Dazzler', a 'Baffler', and a 'Screamer' imp / construct.  Each has diminutive size, wings, and a different +3 skill targeting various maneuver types.  They also have one other power or stunt and a couple lesser skills.  The summoner now has three maneuver creating bots for a fairly trivial investment.  

That's why I prefer the more expensive method.  Independent allies / minions essentially give the player that most valuable of all game statistics - extra actions.  All that said, if a summoned entity is angry or stupid enough to only act when and as the summoner directs it (using up the summoner's turn) I withdraw my objection.

[Sanctaphrax]

Way I see it, the summoned creatures don't require guidance during combat. However, they might not act the way you want them to. They might not make maneuvers, for example. Or perhaps they won't let you tag the aspects they create. While they are loyal to you, they are still NPCs and not under the direct control of the player.

Ultimately, though, the GM has to be careful lest the game's balance be disrupted. That's just the way the Thaumaturgy system works.

The thing is, I want it to be possible to summon something with a small ritual. If all summoning has 23+ complexity, then all summoning is a huge deal.

Seriously, look at what a 23 complexity ritual can do. An 11 shift ward with a duration of "a mortal lifetime" is also 23 complexity. That's a lot more impressive than a summoned creature with no stress track longer than two and no powers or stunts.

Anyway, how do those complexities in my last post look? I honestly have no idea if my system works.

PS: You can't have a Good skill with 5 skill points. Summons still need to follow the skill pyramid.

[UmbraLux]

Anyway, how do those complexities in my last post look? I honestly have no idea if my system works.

Overall I like it - for things with little or no initiative or intelligence.  I think I'd be willing to use both - summon an animal intelligence imp with a few shifts or a human intelligence demon with a lot more.

PS: You can't have a Good skill with 5 skill points. Summons still need to follow the skill pyramid.

Three skills, one each at Average, Fair, and Good.  Though that does require 6 points...you're correct.