question about magic blocks

[crusher_bob]

Blocks (and armor) generated by enchanted items

What makes defensive items a bit different is that you can use the defensive item to create a block (or armor) after you roll your defense.  Also, since it's a non-action to use, you can use them to create defenses even when you are surprised, and have your defense reduced to 0 (plus the dice roll).

Example 1:
Harry is being shot at by goons.  The goon rolls a 3 to hit.  Harry rolls his athletics of 3 to dodge and gets (+, -, -, _) for a final result of 2.  But since the goon is using an elephant gun (weapon: 4) Harry doesn't want to take the stress 5 hit.  So he activates his magic duster (block 4) to completely defend against the goons attack.

Example 2:
Harry is walking around town, minding his own business when another goon takes a shot at him.  The goon has the Lying in Wait aspect.  The goon succeeds in surprising Harry, so Harry's defense is reduced to 0. 
The goon rolls his attack 3 + (+, _, _, _) and tags Lying in Wait for a total of 6. 
Harry rolls his defense 0 + (_, _, _, _) for a total of 0. 
The goon is using a pistol (weapon: 2), so Harry would be looking at an 8 stress hit.
Harry uses his duster to generate a block 4, so reduces it to a stress 4 hit. 
Note: Since the goons attack got though the magical block, it is broken so it no longer provides any protection to Harry.  If, for example, there was a second goon who was also lying in wait, then Harry's defense would be back to 0 again.  Of course, he could use his duster again to generate a second power 4 block, but it uses another charge.

--------------

Stacking Enchanted Item defenses
There seems to be nothing stopping you from having 2 different defensive enchanted items, and using one to generate a block, and the other to generate armor both to apply to the same attack.

Example:
Steed has lent Harry his magical umbrella.  This is normally a power 5 item, but since Steed didn't pay the extra points to allow it to be used by others, it acts as a power 4 item when Harry uses it.

Now, we'll flash back to the goon ambush from example 2, above.
Harry generates a block 4 with his duster, but he's still looking at a stress 4 hit.  He then uses Steed's umbrella to generate armor 2, further reducing the attack to a stress 2 hit.

--------------

Evocation Blocks and Duration
Evocation blocks normally last until the end of your next action.  This means that you always have the chance to extend your block for more duration (Prolonging Spells, YS 259).
Blocks with more shifts put into duration are still broken as normal.  So your long duration block can be brought down early by someone who rolls well.

--------------

Reactive Evocation Blocks
The RAW (rules as written) don't seem to allow you to generate evocation blocks without spending an action.  However, Harry seems to do just this several times in the novels.  Most notably, he's able to generate blocks against things that are much faster than he is, and in game terms, would have initiative on him.

So, several GMs allow reactive block generation.  Many choose to limit it in some way.  Examples are:
have to use rote blocks
can't generate long duration blocks
can't generate blocks when surprised (i.e. when defense would be reduced to zero)
before the confrontation have to self apply an aspect, which can later be used to allow reactive block generation
etc.

Personally, I'm all for allowing reactive block generation.  I think the real limit on spellcasting is mental stress, which you run out of soon enough.

----------

Modern Body armor
Modern body armor probably doesn't deserve a lower rating against melee attacks.  Modern ballistic vests tend to also be highly stab resistant.

If allowing armor:3 mundane armor, don't allow such armor to be concealable.  You can't really wear a class III or class IV vest under a coat and look normal.  It's also reasonably heavy (20-30 pounds).

[toturi]

Modern Body armor
Modern body armor probably doesn't deserve a lower rating against melee attacks.  Modern ballistic vests tend to also be highly stab resistant.

If allowing armor:3 mundane armor, don't allow such armor to be concealable.  You can't really wear a class III or class IV vest under a coat and look normal.  It's also reasonably heavy (20-30 pounds).

I agree, with the exception that the coat or such over-wear isn't the body armor. If the coat has the armor integrated as part of it, then as long as the coat itself is heavy and bulky and is itself obvious, I allow the armor to be concealed.

[BumblingBear]

Example 1:
Harry is being shot at by goons.  The goon rolls a 3 to hit.  Harry rolls his athletics of 3 to dodge and gets (+, -, -, _) for a final result of 2.  But since the goon is using an elephant gun (weapon: 4) Harry doesn't want to take the stress 5 hit.  So he activates his magic duster (block 4) to completely defend against the goons attack.

Wouldn't he still take 1 stress in this situation?

So, several GMs allow reactive block generation.  Many choose to limit it in some way.  Examples are:
have to use rote blocks
can't generate long duration blocks
can't generate blocks when surprised (i.e. when defense would be reduced to zero)
before the confrontation have to self apply an aspect, which can later be used to allow reactive block generation
etc.

Personally, I'm all for allowing reactive block generation.  I think the real limit on spellcasting is mental stress, which you run out of soon enough.

I think all of these rules would make sense.  The one that makes most sense to me is allowing an evocation block and just having it end before the character's next turn.  This would prevent the block from being extended and cause the character more mental stress.

I personally would use an aspect like (Ready for Trouble) to strengthen the block rather than allow it.  Harry has blocked some really, really powerful attacks right before they landed in the books.

As you said, magic-y types cannot indefinitely sling around power without taking consequences.  I think that reactive magic blocks would not break the game and would keep with the original flavor of the novel.

I guess my question here is what about reactive armor?  Would it make sense for a character to try dodging an attack with athletics while simultaneously casting a rote armor, or would that be too powerful?

Last but not least

-An example question-

If I am reading your examples right, a character with a block magical item can use the block as armor rather than a standard evocation block, right?

So... say my character has decent armor on (armor 2) and a ring that functions as a block 3.

A hitman attacks with a dagger (weapon 2) and rolls a 6 to attack.  My character rolls a 3 on athletics (doh!) to evade, and ends up facing a 5 stress hit.

What you're saying is that I could activate the shield ring to soak up 3 stress, and then the armor would soak up the last 2 stress leaving my character unharmed, right?

[UmbraLux]

I may need to revise earlier thought - per YS:210 (the example) you don't stack a block with your defense, you simply get the better of the two. 

So... say my character has decent armor on (armor 2) and a ring that functions as a block 3.

A hitman attacks with a dagger (weapon 2) and rolls a 6 to attack.  My character rolls a 3 on athletics (doh!) to evade, and ends up facing a 5 stress hit.

What you're saying is that I could activate the shield ring to soak up 3 stress, and then the armor would soak up the last 2 stress leaving my character unharmed, right?

Looks like you'd need to choose between using the Block and using Athletics.  In your example both are 3 so it'd be a wash.  But you'd take that 5 stress hit (reduced by armor) for a result of 3 stress.

[BumblingBear]

I may need to revise earlier thought - per YS:210 (the example) you don't stack a block with your defense, you simply get the better of the two.  Looks like you'd need to choose between using the Block and using Athletics.  In your example both are 3 so it'd be a wash.  But you'd take that 5 stress hit (reduced by armor) for a result of 3 stress.

Ok that makes more sense.

So if my magic item was a block 4, but I rolled a 3 to evade, I could choose to use the item block before taking on stress to armor and stress boxes.

That way if you have a really low athletics (or whatever) roll to evade or block damage, you still have an option to fall back on.

[crusher_bob]

Wouldn't he still take 1 stress in this situation?

Note that the goon only has a total of 3 on his attack roll.  Harry's athletics (dodge) total was only 2, but when he uses the duster to generate a block of 4, it's better than the goon's attack roll of 3, so the goon doesn't hit him at all; the damage generated by the gun the goon is using isn't added.

Remember that you only get the higher of your block or defense (usually athletics) roll.

Armor is only generally useful when you already have a 'good' defensive roll to help soak up the damage already.

Example:
You are a wizard with a power 4 defensive item and athletics of 4.

A ghoul attacks you and gets really lucky on his roll (total of 7).  You roll athletics to dodge and get a total of 5.  So you are still looking at a stress 6 hit (ghouls have claws and are inhumanly strong, meaning that they effectively have weapon: 4).

Using your defensive item to generate a power 4 block won't help, because your athletics total is already higher than the power 4 block your defensive item can generate.  But you can use it to generate armor 2, which will reduce the hit to 4 stress.

--------------

But even if you have a reasonably high normal defense, enchanted items are still useful if you ever get ambushed, since they can generate high defenses even when your normal defense would be reduced to zero.

[BumblingBear]

Using your defensive item to generate a power 4 block won't help, because your athletics total is already higher than the power 4 block your defensive item can generate.  But you can use it to generate armor 2, which will reduce the hit to 4 stress.

I thought it was either/or.  So a defense item can be used for a block or defense action just like evocation?  If so, that is pretty spiffy.

I'm sorry for all the questions.  It just seems like the book gave a lot of examples that were not applicable to my character build so it's a bit confusing.

[sinker]

I understand.  I get your reasoning - I just don't particularly agree with it.  By my reasoning, if there is personal armor good enough to stop rifle rounds cold (which are considered a weapon 3 by YS), it makes sense that some personal armor should be able to be rated as a 3.

If I were a GM, I'd consider most high level modern body armor a 3 against guns, 1 against edged/blunt weapons, and 0 against arrows or spears (arrows will go right through most modern body armor).

I think I can see your issue with the armor and it's a little bit of a lack of understanding what stress is. YS201

The best way to look at stress is that it’s
the closest of close calls. That left hook might
not take your character out of the fight, but
his knees wobble a bit. Your character might
have parried that sword blow, but he’s losing
momentum and getting tired. That bullet might
not have hit your character, but he’s agitated, and
one of these times he just isn’t going to be able to
hit the deck quickly enough. This outlook can
help you represent stress in the face of different
sources of harm.

So really the whole concept is that the character is getting worn down. Even if you get "hit" by a bullet you aren't really getting hit because that would result in a consequence (A great example being the consequence "Holy #*&%, I've been shot!). You said there is "armor that stops rifle rounds cold" but does the round ting off of the armor, leaving the wearer standing completely untouched? No, he's going to get knocked down and probably have a good deal of bruising (I.E. a little stress), so really the armor is fairly realistic in that sense (even if the stress concept is a little unrealistic).

[BumblingBear]

I think I can see your issue with the armor and it's a little bit of a lack of understanding what stress is. YS201
So really the whole concept is that the character is getting worn down. Even if you get "hit" by a bullet you aren't really getting hit because that would result in a consequence (A great example being the consequence "Holy #*&%, I've been shot!). You said there is "armor that stops rifle rounds cold" but does the round ting off of the armor, leaving the wearer standing completely untouched? No, he's going to get knocked down and probably have a good deal of bruising (I.E. a little stress), so really the armor is fairly realistic in that sense (even if the stress concept is a little unrealistic).

Now that you put it that way, it does make sense.

I'm new to the FATE system and RPGs in general so I really appreciate you breaking it down crayon-style for me.  It is helping a lot.

[Sanctaphrax]

That's a good example, crusher_bob, but I take issue with one of the minor details. You say that when Steed lends out his enchanted item umbrella its power is reduced by one. I don't think that that is reasonable, since it makes reducing the power of an item by one when making it in order to make it lendable completely pointless.

[BumblingBear]

That's a good example, crusher_bob, but I take issue with one of the minor details. You say that when Steed lends out his enchanted item umbrella its power is reduced by one. I don't think that that is reasonable, since it makes reducing the power of an item by one when making it in order to make it lendable completely pointless.

Doesn't it depend on how powerful the item is?

[Sanctaphrax]

I'm sorry; I don't understand. Doesn't what depend on how powerful the item is?

[BumblingBear]

I'm sorry; I don't understand. Doesn't what depend on how powerful the item is?

Whether you can loan it out to people.  I thought there was a cap.  Forgive my ignorance on this - I've read the book but I still have gaping holes in my understanding.

Also, can someone verify for me that a block item of power 4 can be used as an armor item of power 2 instead depending on circumstances?

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't think there's a cap. As I understand it, an enchanted item can be designed so that it can be leant out by reducing its power by one.

I think you mean enchanted item when you say Item Of Power.

And whether or not you can use defensive items freely as either blocks or armour is a bit unclear, although I'd say no. The confusion probably stems from page 303 of YS where Harry's duster is described as either block 4 or armour 2. It isn't clear whether it can do both at different times.

Deadmanwalking and I have probably made this worse by giving wizards items described as being either blocks or armour. I meant it as "pick one or the other and stick with it", he may have meant otherwise.

[BumblingBear]

I don't think there's a cap. As I understand it, an enchanted item can be designed so that it can be leant out by reducing its power by one.

I think you mean enchanted item when you say Item Of Power.

And whether or not you can use defensive items freely as either blocks or armour is a bit unclear, although I'd say no. The confusion probably stems from page 303 of YS where Harry's duster is described as either block 4 or armour 2. It isn't clear whether it can do both at different times.

Deadmanwalking and I have probably made this worse by giving wizards items described as being either blocks or armour. I meant it as "pick one or the other and stick with it", he may have meant otherwise.

Gotcha.  It seems though that for my build, an item that blocks is more useful.

Thanks for all the info from everyone.  I think I've almost /finally/ got my character finalized.  Casters take a lot of work!

I'm kind of glad, though because it has forced me to really get into the guts of the RAW.