Two questions

[MyNinjaH8sU]

I think in the rpg that something like is dealt with mortal stunts. take one or two of those. They cost refresh and give your character bonuses to skills or allows you to use a skill in a way you normally couldn't.

Agreed. This is the way to accomplish what you are looking for.

[BumblingBear]

I think in the rpg that something like is dealt with mortal stunts. take one or two of those. They cost refresh and give your character bonuses to skills or allows you to use a skill in a way you normally couldn't.

This is not a bad idea.

For instance, a mortal stunt under various skills that describe military training could be declared to give a bump to say... guns.

[sjksprocket]

This is not a bad idea.

For instance, a mortal stunt under various skills that describe military training could be declared to give a bump to say... guns.

Exactly. They say in the book, IIRC, that a mortal stunt gives a +2 bonus per point of refresh, or allows a single sub skill normally not allowed in the base skill per refresh point. So under the guns base skill you could say you have military training to get +2 to when ever you shoot a gun.

[BumblingBear]

Exactly. They say in the book, IIRC, that a mortal stunt gives a +2 bonus per point of refresh, or allows a single sub skill normally not allowed in the base skill per refresh point. So under the guns base skill you could say you have military training to get +2 to when ever you shoot a gun.

I was also thinking of a stunt using guns instead of any other skill to dodge incoming projectile fire due to military training.  I think that makes sense.

[Sanctaphrax]

1. I don't think that a stunt giving +2 whenever you shoot a gun is reasonable. A stunt letting you dodge bullets with Guns, however, probably is.

2. I think the correct way to model good training is by raising the power level. Military special forces might be Submerged, while Walmart greeters are likely below Feet In The Water.

3. If you're looking for inspiration, then you would do well to read some of the threads on the Resources board.

[BumblingBear]

1. I don't think that a stunt giving +2 whenever you shoot a gun is reasonable. A stunt letting you dodge bullets with Guns, however, probably is.

2. I think the correct way to model good training is by raising the power level. Military special forces might be Submerged, while Walmart greeters are likely below Feet In The Water.

3. If you're looking for inspiration, then you would do well to read some of the threads on the Resources board.

I am doing that.

I agree with you too.  While the book says that everyone should be the same power level, I highly disagree with that. Heck, Harry Dresden spent almost an entire book hanging out with Butters and he probably couldn't win a fist fight against a 10 year old.

It's looking like my group will choose to allow everyone to start the game at different power levels, and I think that will both be more fun, more immersive, and more realistic.

My gf will probably be a weretiger with a low refresh.  My character will probably end up being a focused practitioner/emissary of power/x soldier at submerged power level.

One thing I like about the DFRPG is that a lower power character can still do sneaky things to help take down a more powerful opponent - just like in the novels.  I don't care for RPGs as much where everything is just a slugfest or rules hax.

[sinker]

It really is a poor idea to start PCs at different power levels. You're going to have some people taking all of the screen time and others simply fading into the background. There are some ways to have differently powered characters in a game and I'll use the same example that you did: Harry and Butters.

Were the two of them PCs in the same game you would likely have harry, a wizard with all the powers that implies and a broad skill set able to do magic but also investigation, shooting, intimidation, etc (lots of powers, little refresh and a broad skill pyramid with the highest being great). Where as Butters would take a different appraoch, being very good in a few skills and having a few stunts but a lot of luck (a couple of stunts, A LOT of refresh and a very restricted skill tower with the highest few being superb). I'm sure this isn't necessarily how they are stated but it's how I would do it were two people trying to create these characters in a game.

[BumblingBear]

It really is a poor idea to start PCs at different power levels. You're going to have some people taking all of the screen time and others simply fading into the background. There are some ways to have differently powered characters in a game and I'll use the same example that you did: Harry and Butters.

Were the two of them PCs in the same game you would likely have harry, a wizard with all the powers that implies and a broad skill set able to do magic but also investigation, shooting, intimidation, etc (lots of powers, little refresh and a broad skill pyramid with the highest being great). Where as Butters would take a different appraoch, being very good in a few skills and having a few stunts but a lot of luck (a couple of stunts, A LOT of refresh and a very restricted skill tower with the highest few being superb). I'm sure this isn't necessarily how they are stated but it's how I would do it were two people trying to create these characters in a game.

Well, Butters is a fairly extreme example.  Not all mortals are a 2 refresh like Butters more than likely is/was.

Polka trivia is not that relevant to fighting evil.

That said, I think a were-tiger or other powerful were person would be able to hold their own.  Being able to switch around skills and have natural weapons is a rather awesome power.  Plus, animals are /fast/.

I also like the idea of people who cannot throw down with another PC against a mob toe to toe being able to sneak around and do more intelligent/sneaky things.

For instance, I've Larped and in my group once was a kid who had no real fighting ability in RL, and no real fighting skills either.  He had no real armor of note and sunk all of his skill points into non combat skills.

However, the kid was good.  He was able to broker deals with NPCs, he stayed in character pretty well with a very mysterious past, and he was sneaky as hell.  He killed as many people as some of our other more "in your face" players.

Using the book as an example again, Harry rarely goes toe to toe with folks more powerful than he is.  He uses guile, proper planning, and a little help from his friends.  I think that having characters with different power levels will be interesting.

As powerful as a high level evocator is, she may still be terrible at lying or noticing details.  This is where a con man vanilla mortal could shine.  In fact, in some groups, the character with the lowest refresh could be the leader while the higher level characters function as muscle.

[devonapple]

I give it about 3 game sessions before the lower-refresh characters realize what they've allowed themselves to be talked into, and ask to be upgraded to the same power level as the highest-level character. Fudge dice can really let you down if you're running around with mostly Fair- or Good-rank skills. And if a player has volunteered to have fewer Fate points to even boost those skills... well...

[BumblingBear]

I give it about 3 game sessions before the lower-refresh characters realize what they've allowed themselves to be talked into, and ask to be upgraded to the same power level as the highest-level character. Fudge dice can really let you down if you're running around with mostly Fair- or Good-rank skills. And if a player has volunteered to have fewer Fate points to even boost those skills... well...

You're absolutely correct that most players would...

But I know for a fact my gf won't mind.  She wants to be a little more fading towards the background.  She's shy, and her character will more than likely be shy as well.  I'm going to talk to her to roleplay a serious courage charge whenever she changes.

Also, not everyone plays the same way.  I mean, I knew people who played as a vagabond in RIFTS games.  Some people seriously want to RP an underpowered character.  I don't - but everyone is different.

I dunno - you may be right.  I guess we won't know for certain for a couple of months.

[UmbraLux]

Heck, Harry Dresden spent almost an entire book hanging out with Butters and he probably couldn't win a fist fight against a 10 year old.

Err, the RPG uses refresh and how much each character has spent to reflect that, not differing power levels.  In your example, Dresden has spent all but one refresh while Butters probably only has a couple Scholarship stunts and a bunch of unspent refresh.  Choosing a power level for the group doesn't mean everyone has to spend all their refresh.

[BumblingBear]

Err, the RPG uses refresh and how much each character has spent to reflect that, not differing power levels.  In your example, Dresden has spent all but one refresh while Butters probably only has a couple Scholarship stunts and a bunch of unspent refresh.  Choosing a power level for the group doesn't mean everyone has to spend all their refresh.

Excellent point.  I will bear this in mind.

[sjksprocket]

Plus combat skills does not dictate the power level of the character. just because dresden has more combat oriented character arrangements does no make him more powerful then butters. power is not rated in combat terms for me.

[BumblingBear]

Plus combat skills does not dictate the power level of the character. just because dresden has more combat oriented character arrangements does no make him more powerful then butters. power is not rated in combat terms for me.

Not necessarily for me either,

But considering that almost all of Butters' experience and knowledge is cutting up dead bodies, his skills are not very useful except to make assessments about how damaged another person is.

For instance, a very experienced, "high level" daycare worker won't be much good in a campaign either unless he or she has a minor talent or a massive amount of research into the supernatural.

Certain skills are more useful than others to "adventurers" for lack of a better term.

[Wolfwood2]

1. First, would it be possibly for a focused practitioner to be an evocator and just keep improving that one specialized evocation at each milestone?  This idea appeals to me.  The tradeoff for all the myriad other things wizards can do would be a /nasty/ evocation attack even without a foci.

By the character creation rules, yes, but the rules are really only guidelines.  The first question is always if it makes sense narratively, and the second question is if it will make for a good game.

Why does the idea appeal to you?