McAnally's (The Community Pub) > Author Craft

Hero vs. Heroine

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meskarune:

--- Quote from: Aludra on February 23, 2011, 03:56:15 PM ---This is all true in real life, but in a fictional story, if the setting implies that women /aren't/ necessarily the weaker sex (due to political traditions or some equalizer like magic) then I don't think that a heroine is necessarily inclined to be more cautious or afraid of rape.  Also, some women are naturally very atheltic and muscular, (I'm thinking of some of the athletes I knew in HS), and I don't think they went around with a higher sense of caution than their male counterparts.

I'm sorry that you had a lot of bad experiences in Academia as a female, but I think you'd be surprised at how the climate has changed since then.  I majored in math (graduated in 2007) and was never treated as lower than a peer to my classmates (75% of which were males). I was treated with equality in all my classes, too, not just Math.  But then again I didn't foray into CS much.  I took discrete math and was one of the three or so people who had thier book open and could therefore answer the prof and interact in discussions, so I don't know for sure if /that/ was why I was treated equally or not.  In any case, I like to think that the sexism of even 10 years ago has abated quite a lot.

--- End quote ---

LOL I graduated last year..... but anyways  :D

I would NEVER say that women are the weaker sex. I just think that men and women, either by virtue of society or physicality have different strengths and weaknesses which in turn change the way each genger reacts to certain situations. (not bad or good, just different) The only way to write a woman or man realistically is to take these into account.

A character should be one gender or another for a reason beyond being bed buddies, so if an author chooses to make the main character a woman, why did he/she make that choice? If the gender of the main character doesn't matter, why not write them so they have an ambiguous gender? (actually, that would be kinda fun to attempt...)

I think maybe reading up on the psychology of gender would be useful:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/gender

(I would stick with actual psychological research and stay away from feminist sociological papers...)

Women are smaller and have less muscle mass than men. Of course this is not 100% the case, but in general this is true. Being smaller has an affect on the way you react to others. Humans have an instinctual fear/caution about others who are larger or seemingly more aggressive than themselves. This is true for men and women. BUT since most women are smaller than half the population (males), this affects their psychology more than a shortist man who is still taller than some men and most women. (my BF is 6' 6" and all my freinds were afriad of him before they got to know him... ><) On the opposite side, a really large man may behave overly friendly and gentle (big teddy bear) in order to better get along with people, or a really tall man may try to use his size to intimidate people when really he hates to get into confrontations.

Then building upon that, you could say that because people have these tendancies about someone with a particular physical attribute, a stereotype or even cultural standard was created so that most people will see a woman as way less threatening than a man, and women will have to be overly aggressive to intimidate others. NONE of that has anything whatsoever to do with actual power, but percieved power. A small woman may very well be a great warrior, but people upon first glance will still fear the big teddy bear first.

If in your fantasy world, women are bigger and stronger than men, you STILL have to take into account that women carry pregnancies, breast feed (and hence have a child nearby) and possibly menstruate. (lots of people pretend this doesn't exist...LOL) This matters because menstruation and pregnancy make a woman more physically vulnerable and also makes her have to rely more on others. Having children nearby means they need to be more cautious. In preparation for this, even as younger kids, females are are pushed to be more social and have closer ties to their friends (which can also cause lots of drama...). Female relationships are nothing like male ones (like sister/sister or friends, etc) The reason this is important is because a big, stronge, powerful woman, no matter how powerful and undefeatable, is still at some point in her life vulnerable, wereas a big stronge powerful man may not have limitations on his physical prowless or percieved strength until he gets old or really sick.

You could certainly have the guys giving birth, but then you've pretty much made women into men with breasts....

I guess that my arguement is that gender does play a big role in how men and women behave and react to different situations and also how others treat them. No matter how egalatarian a society is, there will be differences due to this. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but gender deffinently shapes how a character behaves and how a character should be written.

The best advice I could give on checking to see if you've written a man or woman well in a work, is to write some paragraphs of the character doing things, and take away all gender ques like he/she and male or female names. (sam, alex and lee are all pretty gender neutral) Then have someone else read it. Most people will be able to say what gender they think the character is. Try doing this with a favorite book in which you think the genders are well written. Its a pretty interesting excersize.


Just for fun:

If I were argueing that gender is a social contruct and sex doesn't affect behavior, I'd bring up transgendered persons who are male or female bodied but feel they have a different gendered mind (but that also brings up the question of what makes a mind male or female?)

I would also point out differences in women between cultures (japanese women and american women are one of my favorite contrasts) Japanese women are not as outwardly emotional and japanese men do have close ties to each other. :D

I think this is just really interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeching_(boys)
the breeching of boys but not girls would have probably had an effect on girls growing up at that time (the change of dress was a special event for boys, and calling a man unbreeched was an insult)

jeno:

--- Quote from: meskarune on February 24, 2011, 07:14:47 AM ---BUT since most women are smaller than half the population(males), this affects their psychology more than a shortist man who is still taller than some men and most women.

--- End quote ---

This? Not true. I don't know why whenever these gender discussions come up everyone seems to forget short and average sized men exist. The average height of a male in the US is between 5'8 and 5'9. The average height of women in the US is between 5'4 and 5'5. In countries where there is significant malnutrition, height for both genders tends to hover around the 5 foot mark.

But again, these numbers are averages. Meaning half of the male population in any country you go to is going to be relatively even in height with half of the female population. Think of it as overlapping bell curves. There are more people of both genders inside of the overlap than there are outside of it. And any given individual inside of that bell curve is just as likely to be shorter, taller or the same height as any other individual, male or female.




--- Quote from: meskarune on February 24, 2011, 07:14:47 AM ---If in your fantasy world, women are bigger and stronger than men, you STILL have to take into account that women carry pregnancies, breast feed (and hence have a child nearby) and possibly menstruate. (lots of people pretend this doesn't exist...LOL) This matters because menstruation and pregnancy make a woman more physically vulnerable and also makes her have to rely more on others. Having children nearby means they need to be more cautious.

--- End quote ---

Er...what? So once they're past puberty, every woman ever is pregnant 24/7? And if she's not pregnant, then she's on her period which makes her more vulnerable? And all sexually mature woman must have at least one kid hanging onto her skirts?

When a woman becomes pregnant (IF she becomes pregnant), it is for nine months, not the rest of her life. If she delivers the kid, then the problem becomes what to do with it. Today, most women wean and raise their own children, but most upperclass women in history handed the baby off to a whet nurse and a bevy of nannies and then got on with their lives. Women in tribal or clan societies left their kids with all the other kids of the group and then went off to do their jobs.

But the people we're talking about in this discussion are female warriors. I don't know about you, but if I were a female warrior, in any time or country, I wouldn't be thinking about popping out a bunch of kids. Women have used various forms of contraceptives since the dawn of freaking time, though some worked better than others. Pregnancy isn't an issue if she doesn't get pregnant.

As for menstruation making you more vulnerable...how? The only thing I could think of that you're referring to are maybe cramps, but not all women get those. Does it make her less able to pick up and use a sword/gun/weapon? Does it cloud her thinking? Her reaction times? What?




--- Quote from: meskarune on February 24, 2011, 07:14:47 AM ---In preparation for this, even as younger kids, females are are pushed to be more social and have closer ties to their friends (which can also cause lots of drama...). Female relationships are nothing like male ones (like sister/sister or friends, etc).

--- End quote ---

That is a cultural thing and if you're working in any kind of alternate world, you can change that or play with societal expectations. You said yourself that there's a lot of variation on this even in the modern world.




--- Quote from: meskarune on February 24, 2011, 07:14:47 AM ---The reason this is important is because a big, stronge, powerful woman, no matter how powerful and undefeatable, is still at some point in her life vulnerable, wereas a big stronge powerful man may not have limitations on his physical prowless or percieved strength until he gets old or really sick.

--- End quote ---

...do you mean to say women, at some definite point in their lives, are always going to be physically vulnerable? Or emotionally vulnerable? Because it is in fact possible for a woman to chose to never have kids. I'd think a female warrior, specifically, is more likely to go down this route than other women. And even if she does get pregnant, it's only for nine months. After that period of time her physical vulnerability is gone. Her emotional vulnerability is a different story.

But that emotionally vulnerability is not something female-specific. Children are as much of a weakness to fathers as they are to mothers. In some cultures fathers have more of an emotional vulnerability where their children are concerned.

Aludra:

--- Quote from: meskarune on February 24, 2011, 07:14:47 AM ---LOL I graduated last year..... but anyways  :D

--- End quote ---

Thats bizarre.  I see you're also in Texas.  I'm going to bet you went to either A&M or TT.

I want to know if I'm right :P

Aludra:

--- Quote from: meskarune on February 24, 2011, 07:14:47 AM ---
I think this is just really interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeching_(boys)
the breeching of boys but not girls would have probably had an effect on girls growing up at that time (the change of dress was a special event for boys, and calling a man unbreeched was an insult)



--- End quote ---

That is really intersting but for a different reason in my perspective: If we still dressed little boys in dresses and didn't let them wear 'breeches' until they were potty trained (2 or 3) then I bet it'd be a hell of a lot easier to potty train them.


But to the topic:

I stand by my former point: So much of gender difference is culture related or politically traditional. If you build a world where your main character is a woman with political/physical/magical prowess over a majority of the population (not all or that would be a boring heroine) then gender differences really fade. Males and females both in that position would be equally obligated to reproduce if political tradition required it. They'd both be equally motivated to avoid caring for children if they were wandering warriors. Neither would be particularly fearful of their lives, being confident in their power. Yes if you wrote a bathroom scene / sex scene it would need to be adjusted between the sexes, but not too much.  In fantasy, you get a lot more leeway on gender behavior than you do in historical fiction or even regular fiction.

meskarune:
@Aludra   I went to Oberlin College Actually... in Ohio. I could have gone to harvard, but Oberlin was cheaper and more fun. :D


--- Quote from: jeno on February 24, 2011, 12:55:28 PM ---Er...what? So once they're past puberty, every woman ever is pregnant 24/7? And if she's not pregnant, then she's on her period which makes her more vulnerable? And all sexually mature woman must have at least one kid hanging onto her skirts?

When a woman becomes pregnant (IF she becomes pregnant), it is for nine months, not the rest of her life. If she delivers the kid, then the problem becomes what to do with it. Today, most women wean and raise their own children, but most upperclass women in history handed the baby off to a whet nurse and a bevy of nannies and then got on with their lives. Women in tribal or clan societies left their kids with all the other kids of the group and then went off to do their jobs.

But the people we're talking about in this discussion are female warriors. I don't know about you, but if I were a female warrior, in any time or country, I wouldn't be thinking about popping out a bunch of kids. Women have used various forms of contraceptives since the dawn of freaking time, though some worked better than others. Pregnancy isn't an issue if she doesn't get pregnant.

As for menstruation making you more vulnerable...how? The only thing I could think of that you're referring to are maybe cramps, but not all women get those. Does it make her less able to pick up and use a sword/gun/weapon? Does it cloud her thinking? Her reaction times? What?

--- End quote ---

I didn't say women had to be pregnant ALL the time. Or even EVER get pregnant. But the fact that you CAN affects the way people behave and how others treat you. And besides that, its totally possible for people to get pregnant unintentionally... The contraceptives of the past were dangerous, and even life threatening to the women involved. I suppose you use have a magic spell or potion to cover that, but the fact remains that that is an action and consequence the woman has to be thinking about, and not the guy.

And giving birth to a kid is NOT just a 9 month sacrifice.... Your "junk" down there gets all kinds of messed up. Bleed for at least a month straight, tearing, inconstinance, excess fat, muscle strenght in the core is non-exsistant.... then there are complications like fistulas, infection (infection of the uterus after birth is VERY high in non-industrial places and is a very big killer of women) Not to mention boobs are leaking milk all over... Many women NEVER recover their bodies afterward, and most celebrities have surgery after having a kid.

If you are really younge, menstruation may not bother you as much, but it only gets worse as you age...

The problem is NOT just a few cramps... I mean, cramps are awful, so is pain in the stomach and legs or lower back, hot flashes, shifts in insulin level which cause dips in blood sugar (means either food cravings or fainting) headaches, bloating...and many women are stuck in bed for a day or two from their periods. (mine keep me in bed for a week because I get migraines ><) Then there is the blood loss itself, which causes lower blood pressure and potentially fainting if the chick is moving around too much. You also have less nutrients and red blood cells, so the body will have less energy. There is also anemia (low hemoglobin in blood caused by bleeding every month) anemia causes lower oxygen in the blood, fatigue, and if it gets really bad can affect the heart. (that happened to me when I was 16)

BUT the other problem with periods... is the mess. Many women in 3rd world countries TODAY don't go to school after they hit puberty. There are no toilets or running water or disposable pads. Women who work in the farms just let the blood run down to the earth so it's not a huge issue there, but if you have no way to keep the mess under control it causes problems, and then if a women uses unsteril rags she can get infections up there... you can't just wash up in the germ infested river. (these issues are probably why you almost NEVER read about menstruation in stories...people just pretend that it doesn't exist. I for one REALLY want to know how star trek women dealt with the issue...)

The fact that women DO have to deal with pain and vulerability, the fact that they have to deal with the issue of pregnancy (Do I want kids? when, how, who with? If I don't want them, how do I prevent it?) I think greatly affects the psyche of being female. If you are used to adapting to those things, and having to rely on others more often than many male's might, it affects how the person behaves and thinks.

I think a lot of "gender neutrall" characters are written with a male psyche. In most modern earth cultures, male is the standard behavior/way of thinking, while female is different or unstandard. I would love to see more female characters written as women, 'cus there is nothing wrong, or weak about being feminine.

This is pretty fun to play around with: http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php
I apparently write like a chick. LOL I really wonder what their word list looks like for this.

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