Can A Spell Deal Mental Stress?

[MyNinjaH8sU]

I'm pretty sure it can, but I wanted to make sure I didn't miss something before I made a Rote of it. Can an attack spell deal straight mental stress? If so, would it still effectively have a Weapon rating?

Let me also give the example I was thinking about: My character is the Winter Knight, and kind of known for not fighting remotely fair.

Hopeless Grip of Winter
This spell causes the victim to feel the dread hopelessness of Deep Winter, driving the will to fight from them, leaving them with nothing but cold Apathy and dispair.

Type: Winter Evocation, Offensive Attack
Power: 5 Shifts
Control: As this is a Rote, the Control is set at 5 Shifts, with the aid of a Focus Item, granting +1 to Control.
Target: One Target in Line of Sight, inflicting Mental Stress.
Duration: One Action
Opposed By: Target's Discipline or Conviction. Some Magical Spirit Blocks may be appropriate as well.

How about it, does that make sense?

[luminos]

perhaps, but I'd consider it to be Thaumaturgy unless you had Psychomancy at speed and methods of Evocation.  Then again, we've seen mind magic frequently enough during the books that you could justify using it for evocation straight out.  See what your group says about it and go from there, since it seems to be a flexible issue.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

That makes sense. Thanks! I understand that directly dealing mental stress can be pretty brutal in a fight.

Part of the character concept is that he isn't a "typical" servant of winter, or at least what people think of with that. there is very little he does overtly, and creations of ice and the like are last resorts. I like attacks like this because it isn't what people expect, and still fulfills the "feel" of winter.

Thank you again for your help. I will talk to my group, and hopefully they will feel that it makes sense too.

[Tsunami]

Evocation can deal Mental Stress Spirit would be an appropriate Element to do it with... but you would have to extra extra extra careful... that way is dark dark grey magic and can very easily cross the line into the black.

And then... Wardens... swords... the usual

[MyNinjaH8sU]

I was actually under the impression that the Winter Knight and Summer Knight are out of the purview of the White Council, concerning the laws.

[Morfedel]

Evocation can deal Mental Stress Spirit would be an appropriate Element to do it with... but you would have to extra extra extra careful... that way is dark dark grey magic and can very easily cross the line into the black.

And then... Wardens... swords... the usual

Not if he is an acknowledged agent of Winter. Then he is not under the Council's jurisdiction.

[Morfedel]

I was actually under the impression that the Winter Knight and Summer Knight are out of the purview of the White Council, concerning the laws.

You are correct.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

What are people's thoughts on the Lawbreaker Powers being applied to someone like a Knight of the Faerie Courts? Seems almost like they shouldn't be, since the magic is sponsored.

[MijRai]

I'd say Mental attacks would be possible with Spirit, with the only problems being the Laws. I have a dark-gray demonic-being with some magic who has one of those for a Rote. Gets around pesky Toughness Powers, just in case. He isn't the best with them, but it helps.

As far as applying the Lawbreaker power, I'd say if they are human, they get it. Even if the White Council can't touch them, a Winter Knight killing with plain ole magic (not sure is the Unseelie Magic counts to Lawbreaker) would still get the power.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

I'd say Mental attacks would be possible with Spirit, with the only problems being the Laws. I have a dark-gray demonic-being with some magic who has one of those for a Rote. Gets around pesky Toughness Powers, just in case. He isn't the best with them, but it helps.

As far as applying the Lawbreaker power, I'd say if they are human, they get it. Even if the White Council can't touch them, a Winter Knight killing with plain ole magic (not sure is the Unseelie Magic counts to Lawbreaker) would still get the power.

I agree with all of this. Just to be clear, I am only talking about Unseelie magic here.

[WillH]

As far as applying the Lawbreaker power, I'd say if they are human, they get it. Even if the White Council can't touch them, a Winter Knight killing with plain ole magic (not sure is the Unseelie Magic counts to Lawbreaker) would still get the power.

Whether or not fae magic falls under the laws is something your group needs to decide for itself.

Whether or not The Unseelie Accords allow the wardens authority over the Winter and Summer Knights is something your group needs to decide for itself.

How individual wardens and they faerie queens will act regardless of the answer to the first too questions is something your group needs to decide for itself.

[Selrach]

Hmm the only real reason the Wardens would start hassling Servants of Winter was if they felt that Servant was messing with something that was under the Wardens' protection.  If they weren't using mind magic on Vanillas or practitioners they wouldn't have immediate cause to nuke you but they wouldn't be anything near friendly towards you.

As for the actual effects and consequences it would inflict would only be Renfield type of damage. Sheer psychic damage that just destroys personality nothing subtle like changes in perception.

[Becq]

Changes stuff:

(click to show/hide)

Didn't McCoy cast a spell in Changes that mind-blasted whole groups of people?  This is not to say anything about whether doing so counts as Lawbreaking (since McCoy doesn't need to concern himself with such things), but it *was* purely mortal magic, and would therefore speak to what is possible.

As to elements, it seems as though Spirit is the only element that mental attacks could come from.

[mostlyawake]

I don't really see a way to deal mental stress to a human without going lawbreaker.

From the 4th law in YS: "Here, enthralling is any effort made to change the natural inclinations, choices, and behaviors of another person".   

It's so broad that things like confusion/befuddlement spells might fall under it, giving someone mental fatigue might fall under it (you're changing their behavior in the sense that if they were not fatigued, they would act differently). A stretch, maybe, but it goes to show that at best, you're in grey areas, and you'd need a clear conversation with your GM about what is and is not lawbreaker for your game so that you don't start with one expectation and get slapped with a lawbreaker that you weren't expecting.

Now, mental stress in other efforts, such as one of my player's recent enthrallment of a fey beastie, is just handled like normal spellcasting.  He used spirit, the creature resisted with discipline, it lost, he told it to go eat the vampires. 

[Becq]

Hm.  You know, I think I've been looking at mental damage in the wrong way.  I've been seeing it as sort of amind blast type of a thing -- like punching, but mentally -- which would, therefore be great for things like knocking people out without physical trauma.  Reading through YS more carefully, I think I'm agreeing with mostlyawake.  Mental conflicts are about attacking the target's thought processes, and inflicting consequences that represent a forced change in their mental processes.  As such, then all use of magic for mental attacks would be basically a variation on the theme of mind control, and would be a violation when used on people.

It looks as though what I thought of as a mental attack -- the magical sucker-punch to the cranium, thus knocking them out -- would still be a physical attack, doing physical stress, with physical consequences (like "Whanging headache" or "Stunned" or "Concussed" instead of "Profuse Bleeding" or "Broken Leg", but still physical consequences nonetheless).

Hm.

Then again, wouldn't illusions count as a mental maneuver, resulting in an aspect along the lines of "I see purple elephants!"?  And the discussion of Harry's love potion makes it sound as though there is some grey area where certain mental manipulation is too minor to count as "enthrallment".

Ok, I thought the mist was clearing, but perhaps not.  :p