Author Topic: I'm behind a magic circle and the vampire has a gun... Can he shoot me?  (Read 6335 times)

Offline fabulator

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Re: I'm behind a magic circle and the vampire has a gun... Can he shoot me?
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2010, 10:36:57 PM »
Okay, so I accept that non-mortals can't break a circle, even if they throw something across (Bob threw Dresden a squeeze bottle of "GTFO" potion in Storm Front, and it didn't end the circle).  So shouldn't a non-mortal with a gun be able to shoot across the perimeter?

I don't know if there's a Word of God about this somewhere but I've often that that Butcher may have written that particular passage without either fully fleshing out what magical circles can do or without checking his notes. It's pretty clear from the rest of the books that Bob tossing Dresden that potion should have broken the circle or not been able to penetrate it.  However, Butcher is superhuman and a god among men so obviously there is something much deeper going on than just a simple continuity error.  Perhaps Bob is a Dragon in disguise or something of that power level; I'm sure they don't care about circles.

Offline mostlyawake

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Re: I'm behind a magic circle and the vampire has a gun... Can he shoot me?
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2010, 11:02:17 PM »
i remember that movie! lol but before he throught the fence post didnt he try and through his hatched/ tomahawk only to have it blocked by the circle around the church so wouldnt this translate into weapons say brought over by fae (rhym not intended) from the nevernever are also block  so for example an elf archer who brought hus own bow would have his arrows blocked by the circle

Yeah this is a chauncy's glasses case... in game terms, his own weapons are constructs made/summoned along with his form, so they can't penetrate the circle. Thus he picks up some scenery and BLAMO!

Offline babel2uk

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Re: I'm behind a magic circle and the vampire has a gun... Can he shoot me?
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2010, 02:26:59 PM »
Okay, so I accept that non-mortals can't break a circle, even if they throw something across (Bob threw Dresden a squeeze bottle of "GTFO" potion in Storm Front, and it didn't end the circle).  So shouldn't a non-mortal with a gun be able to shoot across the perimeter?

To quote from the book:

"The lights swooped down in an elongated cloud over the potion bottle that lay on the floor at the far side of the lab, gathered it up, and hurled it through the air toward me. I reached up with my spare hand and caught it, bobbled it for a minute, and then secured it again."

The stuff that doesn't enter the circle in that section is the acidic spit of the demon. I think the circle only works against the demon because it is a demon and could be contained by such a thing.

Offline finnmckool

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Re: I'm behind a magic circle and the vampire has a gun... Can he shoot me?
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2010, 06:05:09 PM »
Yes, but anything real crosses the threshold of the circle, it breaks the circle. Harry breaks Victor's circle later that book by throwing something across it before Vic stabs the rabbit. Not to mention Binder threatens Harry and Murphy with breaking their circle (that was keeping out his summoned baddies) and letting them through. In face what he said was that if they SHOT him, it would break their circle and they'd get eaten. They could shoot him, or keep them out, but not both.

Offline Arcteryx

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Re: I'm behind a magic circle and the vampire has a gun... Can he shoot me?
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2010, 06:55:59 PM »
I'd lean more towards examples that come from later books... I wonder sometimes if Jim didn't quite have all of his "settings" rules straightened out at the start of the series - probably by the third or fourth books, they were fleshed out quite a bit more in his mind and he was able to stay consistent.

Or maybe it was a potion made by him so it was "invited" or exempt. I dunno.

To get back to the point of the magic circle & vampire's gun... I'd say that's kosher. Fire away, oh bloodsucker with that B.F.G. Perforate said mage into swiss cheese.

But it wouldn't be terribly sporting if he whipped out that pistol in the climatic end-fight - if I was the GM I'd establish early on that he's a gun totin' backshootin' sort of bloodsucker, and he's got an unethical and unstereotypical approach to fightin'.


Offline babel2uk

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Re: I'm behind a magic circle and the vampire has a gun... Can he shoot me?
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2010, 07:10:12 PM »
Yes, but anything real crosses the threshold of the circle, it breaks the circle. Harry breaks Victor's circle later that book by throwing something across it before Vic stabs the rabbit. Not to mention Binder threatens Harry and Murphy with breaking their circle (that was keeping out his summoned baddies) and letting them through. In face what he said was that if they SHOT him, it would break their circle and they'd get eaten. They could shoot him, or keep them out, but not both.

It's not just anything 'real' that breaks the circle:

"As a weapon, it wasn't much. But it was real, and it had been hurled by a real person, a mortal. It could shatter the integrity of a magic circle." (Storm Front)

So Murphy or Harry shooting out of the circle would break it, as would binder throwing something in. His minions - being summoned creatures - couldn't breach the circle. Which seems consistant with the rules laid out in Storm Front

That suggests to me that a magic circle wouldn't keep out bullets shot by a full vampire with a gun, but said bullets wouldn't break the integrity of a circle mid ritual. Of course the spell caster leaping behind cover (or falling to the ground in a twitching mess would probably do that anyway.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 07:16:50 PM by babel2uk »

Offline finnmckool

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Re: I'm behind a magic circle and the vampire has a gun... Can he shoot me?
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2010, 10:21:43 PM »
I'd lean more towards examples that come from later books... I wonder sometimes if Jim didn't quite have all of his "settings" rules straightened out at the start of the series - probably by the third or fourth books, they were fleshed out quite a bit more in his mind and he was able to stay consistent.

Or maybe it was a potion made by him so it was "invited" or exempt. I dunno.

To get back to the point of the magic circle & vampire's gun... I'd say that's kosher. Fire away, oh bloodsucker with that B.F.G. Perforate said mage into swiss cheese.

But it wouldn't be terribly sporting if he whipped out that pistol in the climatic end-fight - if I was the GM I'd establish early on that he's a gun totin' backshootin' sort of bloodsucker, and he's got an unethical and unstereotypical approach to fightin'.



The second example is from Turn Coat.

It's not just anything 'real' that breaks the circle:

"As a weapon, it wasn't much. But it was real, and it had been hurled by a real person, a mortal. It could shatter the integrity of a magic circle." (Storm Front)

So Murphy or Harry shooting out of the circle would break it, as would binder throwing something in. His minions - being summoned creatures - couldn't breach the circle. Which seems consistant with the rules laid out in Storm Front

That suggests to me that a magic circle wouldn't keep out bullets shot by a full vampire with a gun, but said bullets wouldn't break the integrity of a circle mid ritual. Of course the spell caster leaping behind cover (or falling to the ground in a twitching mess would probably do that anyway.

That may be a fine distinction that I wouldn't be comfortable making without some more back up, but you make an interesting point.

Offline Arcteryx

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Re: I'm behind a magic circle and the vampire has a gun... Can he shoot me?
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2010, 01:58:57 AM »
The second example is from Turn Coat.

Well, exactly. The guy even gave the same character two different names in two different books (1 and 3) - the Word of Jim is pretty damned awesome, but its far from infallible.

Offline finnmckool

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Re: I'm behind a magic circle and the vampire has a gun... Can he shoot me?
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2010, 04:26:43 AM »
Well since he's making it all up then I'd say, no, it's pretty infallible unless he says otherwise. Turn Coat's pretty recent.

Offline Becq

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Re: I'm behind a magic circle and the vampire has a gun... Can he shoot me?
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2010, 07:43:30 AM »
I believe that wards/circles can be tuned in various ways.  I think that in the example discussed, the circle was warding against supernatural stuff, or perhaps even demonic stuff specifically.  The demon (who's body is ectoplasm) can't cross it, nor can his spit (more ectoplasm).  Bob couldn't cross it, were he to have tried, since he's spirit.  Harry *could* cross it, but would break the circle by doing so.  A bottle is not demonic (usually), therefore it can pass.  I'm not sure exactly what would happen if, for example, the demon were to throw a bottle at Harry.  I guess Harry's lucky the demon didn't try?

Offline void

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Re: I'm behind a magic circle and the vampire has a gun... Can he shoot me?
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2010, 07:31:51 AM »
Honestly, this is one of those things that could be argued either way. If a circle-threshold would be broken simply by picking up a stick, then it wouldn't be a very valid defense. Vampires, fae, and the like, aren't always swift to adapt, but they aren't STUPID. Hell, just kicking dirt across it would do it under that model.

I think you have to look at it the same way you might look at some of the weird lawbreaker corner cases, such as levitating an anvil over someone and then conveniently letting go of the enchantment. You can (and people have) argue both for and against that being a violation.

Similarly, you could build a solid argument that crossing a threshold -- circle or otherwise -- requires a Mortal act of will.

My first inclination is to treat any weapon wielded by a supernatural as an extension of them for the purposes of a circle, but any secondary effects aren't their problem. So they can pick up a 2x4, but they can't swing it into the circle. They can, however, start taking out supports on the building, which is free to drop on them (gravity doesn't require an invitation).

Where this stance gets hazy is that bullets are inherently second order effects.

For this, I'd be forced to conclude that no, the circle wouldn't stop bullets.. But they wouldn't necessarily constitute a circle violation.

Wizard (or mortal, since they can do it too) gets shot, and if they go flying over the circle (or simply bleed all over it), THAT breaks it.

If they're stoic(or decently armored) enough to survive the shots, well, they've still got a circle. For what that's worth. Dudeness still has a gun, and presumably more shots.

You've bought time. Use it wisely.

[edit]

I started to edit to clarify that for the whole 'swinging a stick' angle it's not that the circle blocks the stick, it's that they can't decide to violate the circle that way. That led me to have the thought that we needed to look more closely at the 'act of will' aspect.

So I just went and looked at Turn Coat, and ... well, well. I have to reverse my stance pretty fully with regards to second order effects.

Quote
“They’re spirit beings,” I said. “As long as the circle’s here, they’re staying outside it.”

“Couldn’t they just scuff dirt on it or something?”

I shook my head. “Breaking the circle isn’t just a physical process. It’s an act of choice, of will—and these things don’t have that.”

From where I sit, that kind of settles the matter, as long as we're taking current Word of God as valid on the matter.

Someone without mortal will cannot simply choose to take an action that would violate a threshold... And that would include firearms.

And if they can break down a threshold, they're probably not going to play with guns... unless they find it amusing, anyway.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 07:45:16 AM by void »

Offline Arcteryx

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Re: I'm behind a magic circle and the vampire has a gun... Can he shoot me?
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2010, 04:07:57 PM »
So I just went and looked at Turn Coat, and ... well, well. I have to reverse my stance pretty fully with regards to second order effects.

I love this because it fits so well with the theme of the books and the game: mortal choice, free will & nature. Two giant thumbs up.