Author Topic: What's the most munchkin character you can build?  (Read 25638 times)

Offline Korwin

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 414
    • View Profile
Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« Reply #75 on: May 03, 2010, 03:50:19 PM »
Oh sorry, didnt read crusher_bob's post correctly.
My posted Char. only has Refinement for extra Item Slots.

I was under the impression, after first reading he meant Item Slots need to follow the Collumn rule.
(But the Char. in question cant take refinement for anything but Items Slots)

And here is the relevant text about item slots.
Quote
The one restriction on the bonuses provided
is that they may not total to a number greater
than your Lore. So if your Lore is Good (+3),
you can have an evocation focus item that
provides +3 to offensive control, offensive power,
defensive power, or defensive control, or a focus
item that provides +1 to three of those, or +2 to
one and +1 to another, but you can’t construct
one that provides bonuses totaling 4 or more.

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« Reply #76 on: May 03, 2010, 03:53:24 PM »
pg 182 your story.

Emphasis mine.

The only bonuses that ignore this rule are focus items.

Which is what Korwin used. The character's legal.

Though I'm not sure it's too overpowered. It's powerful, but by no means unbeatable. Hell, a specialized Evocater can equal the items fairly well, ditto the Glamour if they're a Spirit specialist. The Emotional Vampire and Incite Emotion are nicely thematic, but since she needs physical contact to do them not that powerful considering

Oh, and her first skill pyramid has Athletics twice.

Offline Korwin

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 414
    • View Profile
Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« Reply #77 on: May 03, 2010, 04:08:01 PM »
Well Glamour has the advantage that it doesnt get you stress.
And with it you should get near enough to a target to use incite emotion.

I thought about only getting her 1 refinement and instead an immunity to Magic.

Ups about that skill pyramide.


Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« Reply #78 on: May 03, 2010, 04:12:17 PM »
Oh, I'm not arguing the character isn't effective. And you're right about Glamour being free, but outside combat that doesn't matter much.

And, for both the Glamour and the Enchanted Items, there's the disadvantage that they can be taken away, leaving you effectively down 7 Refresh worth of powers.

It's an effective and powerful character...but I'm really not sure if it's broken in the same way as, say, Moriden's character. Or, indeed, any more powerful than a number of more conventional options.

Offline SaintAndSinner

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 176
  • Dresden Files Playtester (Bleeding Alpha)
    • View Profile
    • A Saint And A Sinner
Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« Reply #79 on: May 03, 2010, 04:31:49 PM »
I don't think its really broken and I've got a new NPC for my games. 

Win + Win = Awesome Win!!

"Before you speak, it is necessary for you to listen, for God speaks in the silence of the heart."
Blessed Mother Teresa, Ora Pro Nobis

Offline Korwin

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 414
    • View Profile
Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« Reply #80 on: May 10, 2010, 05:21:21 PM »
Ups, modified the wrong post...

High Concept: Changling Sorcerer
Trouble: In-Debt
Other Aspects: Mutual Protection Pact

-3 Thaumaturgy


-4 Supernatural Recovery
+3 Catch: Iron   
-----
-1



-8 Physical Immunity
+5 Stacked-Catch: only against Mortal Magic*   
-----
-3



-1 Refinement x 2   -2
-----
-2

(6 Focus Item Slots)
+5 Summoning and Binding Complexity Focus.
+1 Item Focus Slot exchanged into Enchanted Item Slots.

* Is a Catch against Magic possible? How would that be priced?


Total Refresh cost: -9



Important Skills:
Superb: Lore, Discipline
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 06:40:26 PM by Korwin »

Offline KOFFEYKID

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 776
  • Im BLEEDING Caffeine!
    • View Profile
Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« Reply #81 on: May 11, 2010, 12:58:47 AM »
Lilith, Mistress of the "Little Death", a men's club in the Financial District.

Cost   Ability
 -1      Emotional Vampire
+0      Human Guise
 -1      Incite Emotion
 -1      -At Range
 -1      -Lasting Emotion
 -1      --Potent Emotion
+1      Item Of Power (Affecting Incite Emotions)
+1      Feeding Dependency
+0      -The Catch (is True Love)
 -2      --Inhuman Recovery
 -2      -Inhuman Speed
 -2      -Inhuman Strength
-------------------------------------
-9

Item of Power: Valentine's Day Locket, gives the At Range, Lasting Emotion, and Potent Emotion upgrades to a character's Incite Emotion power.

Rank   Skills
5      Deceit
4      Resources, Contacts, Discipline
3      Presence, Rapport, Endurance
2      Empathy, Alertness, Conviction
1      Might, Weapons, Guns   

Stress: P OOOO M OOO S OOOO H OOOO

This character isn't powerful by herself, but she has Great Contacts (meaning she knows almost everybody on the scene), and she has Great Resources (meaning she can get those contacts to help her with her money). She does mental attacks at Weapon: 4 using Deceit, which she has at Superb.

Lets give her some aspects:

Succubus of the White Court High Concept
Lilith is a Sexy Bitch. She knows everything about the arts of love, lies, and betrayal.
Invoke: Anything having to do with seduction, social skills, controlling her hunger, and White Court Powers.
Compel: She just has to have a taste of almost anybody she sees.

Stress Eater Trouble
Lilith is a stress eater, she gets hungry if problems arise, she gets hungry if she breaks a nail, she gets hungry when a client is late. Whenever things don't go her way, she's probably hungry.
Compel: To get her to feed on somebody.

Access To The Family Jewels Background
Lilith is a member of the White Court, and part of a noble house. She has also proven to be a successful businesswoman and that has extended the access to her families deep pockets.
Invoke: She gets bonuses to social situations when making lucrative deals, and she gets bonuses to her resource rolls when invoking this.
Compel: What you borrow, you have to pay back. When a deal falls through, she'll have to pull money out of her own coffers to pay the piper, or loose standing in the House.

Pillow Talk Rising Conflict
Lilith and her girls are adept at pulling information out of somebody they have... relaxed. She's learned many secrets, and can usually get what she wants through blackmail.
Invoke: Bonuses to Contacts if she's willing to call on a "client", bonuses to social skills post-coitus.
Compel: Some people take blackmail very poorly, some people think that the only way to keep a secret is if everybody else who knows it is dead.

Honeyed Tongue First Adventure
Lilith is able to lie like the best of them, and she is able to put on a front of innocence that almost anybody will believe.
Invoke: Bonuses to Deceit rolls.
Compel: Sometimes a lie will bite you in the ass.

Dominatrix, thy name is Lilith Guest Star
She knows how to use a whip, she knows how to tie you up, and she knows how to make you feel good even when you feel so very bad.
Invoke: On rolls to tie somebody up, on rolls to use a whip in combat, on rolls to interrogate somebody she's tied up.
Compel: Some people just cant handle a woman in control, some people are intimidated by her without her meaning to.

Guards! Seize that Man! Guest Star Redux
Lilith is the Madame of a Gentlemen's Club/Bordello of the finest quality. She has lots of guards to keep the girlies safe, lots of guards to keep her safe. They don't appreciate people hurting the Mistress or her Girls.
Invoke: To get her Guards to help in a tough spot, to hire new guards, etc etc.
Compel: Sometimes a Guard needs to be showed that he is appreciated.

So Basically Lilith has a license to print Fate Points, she just has to do somebody. She can leverage 2 or 3 aspects on almost any social situation, giving her up to a +11 on her Deceit rolls, even if somebody with a superb rapport defends, she'll hit them for 6 mental stress. She can feed at a distance, and she can probably pull a zone wide incite emotions + emotional vampire feed at weapon 2.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 01:48:14 AM by KOFFEYKID »

Offline arentol

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 79
    • View Profile
Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« Reply #82 on: May 11, 2010, 02:54:56 AM »
Changling Focused Practioner:

This Char. doesnt need preparation for Complexity 10 Summoning and Binding Rituals.
If Summoning and Binding takes 5 Minutes (I can see an argument that the time needed is shorter, but not one for longer
(click to show/hide)
)
this Char can Summon 22 Hellhounds in two Hours (and they would keep company for 1 month).
But since (IMHO) Fae can die, we summon Magical-Constructs with the Stats of Hellhounds.

An Wizard could do the same, but wouldnt be as good in defense as this Char.

The Char. becomes really really good if you can (the GM lets you) make the Summoned Creatures yourself (Low Conviction - High Refresh).

I'm looking at the Giant Scarecrow at the moment (OW 45), this Char. should be able to summon it...


Sounds a lot like a
(click to show/hide)
from Turn Coat build, except as a changeling. Super focused and extremely capable at what he does, summoning and binding nasty little monsters.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 03:00:05 AM by arentol »

Offline Korwin

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 414
    • View Profile
Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« Reply #83 on: May 11, 2010, 03:29:54 AM »
Yeah, I had him in mind.

But for my games I'll need something to limit summoning...

Offline Korwin

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 414
    • View Profile
Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« Reply #84 on: May 11, 2010, 07:55:29 AM »
Changling Focused Practioner:


-3 Thaumaturgy


-4 Supernatural Recovery
+3 Catch: Iron   
-----
-1



-8 Physical Immunity
+5 Stacked-Catch: only against Mortal Magic*   
-----
-3



-1 Refinement x 2   -2
-----
-2

(6 Focus Item Slots)
+5 Summoning and Binding Complexity Focus.
+1 Item Focus Slot exchanged into Enchanted Item Slots.

* Is a Catch against Magic possible? How would that be priced?


Total Refresh cost: -9



Important Skills:
Superb 2: Lore, Discipline


This Char. doesnt need preparation for Complexity 10 Summoning and Binding Rituals.
If Summoning and Binding takes 5 Minutes (I can see an argument that the time needed is shorter, but not one for longer
(click to show/hide)
)
this Char can Summon 22 Hellhounds in two Hours (and they would keep company for 1 month).
But since (IMHO) Fae can die, we summon Magical-Constructs with the Stats of Hellhounds.

An Wizard could do the same, but wouldnt be as good in defense as this Char.

The Char. becomes really really good if you can (the GM lets you) make the Summoned Creatures yourself (Low Conviction - High Refresh).

I'm looking at the Giant Scarecrow at the moment (OW 45), this Char. should be able to summon it...


Now to the cheesy part: This Chars summons an magical Construct:

Big Bad Dragony Thingy -

Aquatic [–1]
Breath Weapon [–2]
Claws [–1]
Venomous [–2]
Wings [–1]
Spider Walk [–1]
Supernatural Sense Broad Senses [–2]
Greater Glamours [–4]
Worldwalker [–2]
The Sight [–1]
Mythic Speed [–6]
Mythic Strength [–6]
Mythic Recovery [–6]
Mythic Toughness [–6]
+0 Catch: Wildberries from the Himalaya
Physical Immunity [–8]
+0 Catch: Alcohol older than 200 years
-------------------------------------------------------------
49 Refresh.

Conviction of Mediocre +0

Above Summoner would have an extra Specialisation bonus from Thaumaturgy, so he would get an extra +1 to Complexity. So if we use that bonus for extra time, the time would change from 1 month to several months.

If we change the binding ritual to 1 Shifts for the Binding and 10 Shifts for an extended duration the Thing would be bound for a few years… (or until the Summoner/Constructor got into an circle? Not worth the extra time for the binding, in this case)


And here is my suggested fix:
My solution would be (and I'm thinking for using it with Demons too) Refresh cost x 2 is the base Summoning (Constructing) Ritual.
(Containmend and Binding Ritual would be still based of Conviction)



« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 08:06:08 AM by Korwin »

Offline Slife

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 604
  • Fuego Maximilian‽
    • View Profile
    • VGF, Yo.  Home of the World's First Spritecomic
Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« Reply #85 on: May 11, 2010, 09:25:16 PM »
Summon anything with greater glamor -> Create Antimatter. 

(since " As far as the effects of the object are concerned, simply give it the same attributes a fully real object of its type would have. ")

« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 09:26:56 PM by Slife »
Rule one of magic:  Never, ever, under any circumstances, trust someone named "Morningstar".

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« Reply #86 on: May 12, 2010, 08:33:37 AM »
On the Changeling Summoner:  Yeah, that works fine. And can be killed casually by anyone with a sword or gun. Sure, vast horde of minions, but he's fragile and anyone who kills him likely doesn't need to worry about most of the minions thereafter. His power also all depends on prep-time. Not a lot, but some (he can't keep 22 Hellhounds around all the time).

And I'd argue that nothing
(click to show/hide)
does proves Summoning takes that little time (I'd make it quite a bit longer, personally). I, also personally, assumed his Summonings were of entire groups, and all conducted offscreen, all he did onscreen was yell the equivalent of "Here, boy!" at already summoned critters.


As for the dragon-thingy, I'd rule that to power that you need either a ridiculously old, potent, and strong-willed spirit, or an AI so complex and intelligent it will rapidly gain such qualities and escape your control easily.


On Lilith: Yeah, she works fine, but I'm gonna repeat a "So?" here. She's badass White Court, but bullets don't bounce off her. In fact, most Wardens (or other combat Wizard PCs) can casually fry her physically at least as fast as she can mess them up mentally.

Offline Korwin

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 414
    • View Profile
Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« Reply #87 on: May 12, 2010, 11:27:12 AM »
As for the dragon-thingy, I'd rule that to power that you need either a ridiculously old, potent, and strong-willed spirit, or an AI so complex and intelligent it will rapidly gain such qualities and escape your control easily.

While the Dragon Thingy is way over the top, where do you draw the line?

Some examples of Entities and Willpower (Conviction):
Chauncy - Fair
Kalshaza - Mediocre
Shen - Mediocre
Cobb  - Mediocre
Elf - Mediocre
Bucky - Mediocre
Hammerhands - Mediocre
The Reaper - Mediocre
Giant Scarecrow - Average or Fair
Goblin - Mediocre
Elder Gruff - Average
Hellhound - Mediocre
Hob - Mediocre
Malk - Mediocre
Nixie - Mediocre
Ogre - Mediocre
Pixie - Mediocre
Shellycobb - Mediocre
Sylph - Mediocre
Bridge Troll - Mediocre
Spectre - Average
Library Ghost - Great
Hecatean Hag - Great
He Who Walks Behind - Good
Tentacled Horror - Average


Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« Reply #88 on: May 12, 2010, 11:38:47 AM »
I'd actually give an Elder Gruff or the Scarecrow more than that (in fact, I did precisely that when I statted up my version of the Gruffs), and the Tentacled Horror is an Outsider and thus plays by it's own rules. Also summoning elite hitters from either Summer or Winter has consequences you'd better be prepared to face (Eldest Brother Gruff may be annoyed you forced his brother to do something, just for example).

Also, even assuming you go with those scores, those are alot less powerful than a -49 Refresh, and there is a clear ascending hierarchy, it just goes a bit slowly. But even by those standards (say, 1 point of Conviction every 10 Refresh, rounded down), the dragon would have a minimum of Great or Superb Conviction.

And aside from those two, I'm not inclined to see any problems with summoning any of the things listed.

Offline Korwin

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 414
    • View Profile
Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« Reply #89 on: May 12, 2010, 12:25:11 PM »
The list is there as an example of existing NeverNever NPC's and their Conviction scores.
As guidline for stating other NPC's.

Also, even assuming you go with those scores, those are alot less powerful than a -49 Refresh, and there is a clear ascending hierarchy, it just goes a bit slowly. But even by those standards (say, 1 point of Conviction every 10 Refresh, rounded down), the dragon would have a minimum of Great or Superb Conviction.

Even with Superb Conviction, its trivial easy for an Focused Summoner to Summon and Bind it.
(Superb +5, +4 best possible dice roll = +9 without Fate Points).
Asses two Aspects for the Containment Ritual and you have nothing to fear.

Quote
Yeah, that works fine. And can be killed casually by anyone with a sword or gun.
Sword OK, Gun would need special munition.
And if we use not an Fae as Parent but something other from the Nevernever it looks different.
And the Char. has two Enchanted Item Slots, an Lore of Superb and Thaumaturgy, so it would be prudent for the Char. to get an Enchanted Armor Item asap.
Better idea: Downgrade Thaumaturgy to Ritual: Summoning. Get an Extra Refinement for Enchanted Item Slots and let an dedicated summoned Item Crafter make your Magic Items.

Casually by anyone with an Sword? Even if we keep the Iron Catch. Not seeing it.

On the whole, I dont see the problem with the Char. per se, but with the Summoning/Binding rules.
So my House-Rule is: More complex NPC's need a higher complexity (Summoning-)Ritual.
(And that would fit into the Summoning of the Erling. Harry got the Summoning Ritual from Peabody [well his book], but the Containment-Spell was Harrys [and would still be based on Conviction and be possible])

Summary:
Even if you give all NeverNever NPC's an Superb Conviction, its still trivial easy for an Summoner to summon and bind them. There is no in-Game reason why
(click to show/hide)
had such whimps as cannon fodder.