McAnally's (The Community Pub) > Author Craft
Is your character a Mary Sue?
Dom:
Heh, I have strong view on this. YMMV (your milage may vary, take me with a grain of salt) Also, I don't mean to sound as agressive as I might.
--- Quote from: Qualapec on March 03, 2007, 02:42:53 AM ---Cummon, if that isn't premise for a Mary Sue, please tell me what is.
--- End quote ---
Because the definition of a Mary Sue tends to be a laundry list of "don'ts" and usually disregards the fact that a talented writer in original fiction can take that rule list of don'ts, break every single one of them, and carry it off so the reader thinks it's a great story.
See Jim Butcher - I believe it's mentioned elsewhere that a talking head is a no-no in writing, and what does Jim do? He gives us Bob. Who is a talking head, literally. He also took the premise of Pokemon--catching funny little spirits and training them up to do your bidding, which was a premise or plot someone else pooh-poohed on--and turned it into Codex Alera.
(They can also break every rule and come out with a poor character, too, which sounds like what happened in your example, but it depends on the author's skill, not the laundry list. You can have a character that's perfectly normal...and perfectly boring. That's bad characterization too. I guess we could call that one a Sleepy Boo? :D )
--- Quote from: Qualapec on March 03, 2007, 02:42:53 AM ---Besides, that's an extreme example. Mary Sue can be used to describe any female character who is too strong and not complex enough to counter balence.
--- End quote ---
In my eyes, that's called poor characterization, period. I don't like it being called Mary Sue because of the Mary Sue laundry list; you start down the road where any strong female is called Mary Sue, warrented or not, and it pretty much nixes the Hero category of characters, because the classical Hero (say, Superman) has a lot of the "traits" of Mary Sue. You start down the road where any hero character is a Mary Sue. And that's not true--see Starbuck, as you mentioned.
Really, the part about "Mary Sue" that really gets me is the laundry list that's connected to it. There's quizzes about it, even. So I don't use Mary Sue when I mean "poor characterization" because I don't believe the laundry list has anything to do with the reason the character is truly poorly made, the reason has to do with the skill of the author, and I don't want to give people the impression that I do think the laundry list factors into it.
--- Quote from: Qualapec on March 03, 2007, 02:42:53 AM ---And why would a fanfiction character with similar qualities to someone like Starbuck for instance be dubbed a Mary Sue when Starbuck wouldn't.
--- End quote ---
The reason I actually left BSG fandom was because fans were calling Starbuck a Mary Sue. Seriously.
But the reason a Starbuck-like character in fanfic might be a Mary Sue--she would violate existing facts about the world she's put into. Basically the world would bend, just for her. For example, lets put a Starbuck-like character into a Harry Potter fanfic. Starbuck has a special relationship with Admiral Adama--so naturally, in the HP fic a character like her would have a special relationship with Albus Dumbledore. Starbuck is a crack fighter pilot, and used to do sports--so lets make her a crack Quiddich player. She had a bitch of a mother, and I think a better relationship with her dad, so lets make her mother Slytherin, and her father Gryffindor.
So this hot-shot quidditch star that's a favorite of Dumbledore pops up at Hogwarts, and has a foot in each rival House. She appears out of nowhere. Maybe she replaces Hooch. Half the male cast wants her (Lee/Anders/Baltar/Zak all sleep with her...we can make that Sirius/Lupin/Snape/Some other wizard...). And she has an adventure. Stealing the raider/stealing the flying car a la Harry Potter...
Ewwww. For me, this sort of thing sort of violates the space/time of the HP universe, by making all these major changes, with no canon to back it up, even if it was written well. It's fine in the BSG universe, because that's where she belongs, and she has a long history of connections with other characters that we've seen. She IS a hero of the BSG universe. It's when you drop it into another universe that it starts to really warp the fabric of the universe, because it disregards known rules put into place by the original author of the universe. She's NOT a hero of the HP universe, and the reader knows it.
But it's easier to say "Another character with purple eyes!" then "This character violates the rules of this world." "Uh, what are the rules?" "Well, they're tacit...hard to explain" "You mean there are no rules." "There are, I just can't articulate them! Oh, frak it...she has purple eyes. She's a Mary Sue."
But yeah...my highly opinionated opinion.
Again, I'm mostly against the laundry list part of the definition of "Mary Sue". It's so popular, and so easy to run down and check off when you compare a character to it that any moron can use it to bash a character. See my Starbuck comment above!
Kaos Wizard:
I guess the thing I look for most when evaluating a Mary Sue is if the character is pure wish fullfillment for the author and dosn't serve any other purpose. Basically characters that are the embodiement of everything the author thinks of as cool or awesome, even the occasional weakness is usual a strong note for the character. If you ever play around in AOL Chat room simms (I'll go ahead and admit I used to ::shudders:::) a lot of characters on there are Mary Sue characters, especially if they're what we used to affectionately refer to as "Moders" (invincible characters that were too perfect). Maybe my definition of a Mary Sue is off though, but that was my basic understanding of the term from an RPG stand point.
Qualapec:
--- Quote from: Dom on March 03, 2007, 04:37:21 AM ---Heh, I have strong view on this. YMMV (your milage may vary, take me with a grain of salt) Also, I don't mean to sound as agressive as I might.
--- Quote from: Qualapec on March 03, 2007, 02:42:53 AM ---Cummon, if that isn't premise for a Mary Sue, please tell me what is.
--- End quote ---
Because the definition of a Mary Sue tends to be a laundry list of "don'ts" and usually disregards the fact that a talented writer in original fiction can take that rule list of don'ts, break every single one of them, and carry it off so the reader thinks it's a great story.
See Jim Butcher - I believe it's mentioned elsewhere that a talking head is a no-no in writing, and what does Jim do? He gives us Bob. Who is a talking head, literally. He also took the premise of Pokemon--catching funny little spirits and training them up to do your bidding, which was a premise or plot someone else pooh-poohed on--and turned it into Codex Alera.
(They can also break every rule and come out with a poor character, too, which sounds like what happened in your example, but it depends on the author's skill, not the laundry list. You can have a character that's perfectly normal...and perfectly boring. That's bad characterization too. I guess we could call that one a Sleepy Boo? :D )
--- Quote from: Qualapec on March 03, 2007, 02:42:53 AM ---Besides, that's an extreme example. Mary Sue can be used to describe any female character who is too strong and not complex enough to counter balence.
--- End quote ---
In my eyes, that's called poor characterization, period. I don't like it being called Mary Sue because of the Mary Sue laundry list; you start down the road where any strong female is called Mary Sue, warrented or not, and it pretty much nixes the Hero category of characters, because the classical Hero (say, Superman) has a lot of the "traits" of Mary Sue. You start down the road where any hero character is a Mary Sue. And that's not true--see Starbuck, as you mentioned.
Really, the part about "Mary Sue" that really gets me is the laundry list that's connected to it. There's quizzes about it, even. So I don't use Mary Sue when I mean "poor characterization" because I don't believe the laundry list has anything to do with the reason the character is truly poorly made, the reason has to do with the skill of the author, and I don't want to give people the impression that I do think the laundry list factors into it.
--- Quote from: Qualapec on March 03, 2007, 02:42:53 AM ---And why would a fanfiction character with similar qualities to someone like Starbuck for instance be dubbed a Mary Sue when Starbuck wouldn't.
--- End quote ---
The reason I actually left BSG fandom was because fans were calling Starbuck a Mary Sue. Seriously.
But the reason a Starbuck-like character in fanfic might be a Mary Sue--she would violate existing facts about the world she's put into. Basically the world would bend, just for her. For example, lets put a Starbuck-like character into a Harry Potter fanfic. Starbuck has a special relationship with Admiral Adama--so naturally, in the HP fic a character like her would have a special relationship with Albus Dumbledore. Starbuck is a crack fighter pilot, and used to do sports--so lets make her a crack Quiddich player. She had a bitch of a mother, and I think a better relationship with her dad, so lets make her mother Slytherin, and her father Gryffindor.
So this hot-shot quidditch star that's a favorite of Dumbledore pops up at Hogwarts, and has a foot in each rival House. She appears out of nowhere. Maybe she replaces Hooch. Half the male cast wants her (Lee/Anders/Baltar/Zak all sleep with her...we can make that Sirius/Lupin/Snape/Some other wizard...). And she has an adventure. Stealing the raider/stealing the flying car a la Harry Potter...
Ewwww. For me, this sort of thing sort of violates the space/time of the HP universe, by making all these major changes, with no canon to back it up, even if it was written well. It's fine in the BSG universe, because that's where she belongs, and she has a long history of connections with other characters that we've seen. She IS a hero of the BSG universe. It's when you drop it into another universe that it starts to really warp the fabric of the universe, because it disregards known rules put into place by the original author of the universe. She's NOT a hero of the HP universe, and the reader knows it.
But it's easier to say "Another character with purple eyes!" then "This character violates the rules of this world." "Uh, what are the rules?" "Well, they're tacit...hard to explain" "You mean there are no rules." "There are, I just can't articulate them! Oh, frak it...she has purple eyes. She's a Mary Sue."
But yeah...my highly opinionated opinion.
Again, I'm mostly against the laundry list part of the definition of "Mary Sue". It's so popular, and so easy to run down and check off when you compare a character to it that any moron can use it to bash a character. See my Starbuck comment above!
--- End quote ---
You make some good points. Mary Sue is a bit of a broad term. And it makes sense that it should depend on the skills of the writer instead of a "laundry list" of don'ts as you say.
But let me say this. The scenario you came up with for a Starbuck-like character in a Harry Potter universe doesn't fit. A Starbuck character wouldn't fit in the Harry Potter universe under those specific circomstances. It also only speaks of the cosmetic parts of Starbuck's character.
But what about a darker story. About an auror with authority issues, but who's also a fantastic soldier. She drinks, she smokes in an attempt to numb her perpetual depression. She lacks most social graces when it comes to romance and only really holds casual friendships. She has all these problems, but when push comes to shove she'll do the right thing or die trying. Even if that means facing down five Death Eaters by herself. And lets just say she's with the Order of the Pheonix, and Dumbledore tolerates her because of her better qualities. She could very easily be a hero in the Harry Potter universe as well.
~She-Wolf
Kaos Wizard:
--- Quote from: Qualapec on March 03, 2007, 08:15:46 AM ---
You make some good points. Mary Sue is a bit of a broad term. And it makes sense that it should depend on the skills of the writer instead of a "laundry list" of don'ts as you say.
But let me say this. The scenario you came up with for a Starbuck-like character in a Harry Potter universe doesn't fit. A Starbuck character wouldn't fit in the Harry Potter universe under those specific circomstances. It also only speaks of the cosmetic parts of Starbuck's character.
But what about a darker story. About an auror with authority issues, but who's also a fantastic soldier. She drinks, she smokes in an attempt to numb her perpetual depression. She lacks most social graces when it comes to romance and only really holds casual friendships. She has all these problems, but when push comes to shove she'll do the right thing or die trying. Even if that means facing down five Death Eaters by herself. And lets just say she's with the Order of the Pheonix, and Dumbledore tolerates her because of her better qualities. She could very easily be a hero in the Harry Potter universe as well.
~She-Wolf
--- End quote ---
Usually a Mary Sue isn't much more then cosmetic and what goes deeper then skin is very cliche. An author (or RPG player) that goes beyond that with a character is usually expanding them to something beyond a Mary Sue. You can get in to archetypeal regions of the character that have similarities with other well known characters and avoid being a Mary Sue, because in my experience a Mary Sue isn't much more then a skin deep character anyways.
Maiafay:
I've seen Star Buck in action, and HELL no, she isn't Mary Sue...
This is a topic that really gets under my skin because frankly, I had posted one of my OC's on a live journal analysis group, and gave samples of the fanfic in question. They tore him apart not based on prose, or my skill level, but on the fact I made him related to one of the "canon" characters and reasonably attractive. It escalated to a flame war when I didn't go with what they "suggested" and I pulled the post. It did not matter how well I wrote him, as far as they were concerned, related to canon character=Sue. Which is bullshit. Same as those tests. And it pisses me off that people on these groups will make it a point to be as rude and demeaning to the author as they possibly can. Hello, all because you can't see the person, doesn't give you the right to behave like an ass. Some of these authors that they pounce on (or 'spork' as they call it in the fanfic world), are like 14, 13 years old. WTF? It's picking on a kid. There's no reason for it....
Anyway, I stay with those groups so I can smack them every once in a while when "critics" go off on a character for having purple hair, or having a "cool" name. And god forbid anyone is 'related' to anyone else...
Apparently, you have to heap dust on original characters and give them ridiculous flaws just to make them REAL.
*massive eye roll*
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