The Dresden Files > DFRPG
Aren't Claws Too Weak?
Deadmanwalking:
--- Quote from: paul_Harkonen on April 25, 2010, 06:47:00 PM ---All Aspects generate equal effects, this does not make them all equal. For example, the aspect of "BROKEN FINGER": I can invoke it, maybe, during any grapple, but not a whole lot else (without getting really creative). The aspect of "BLINDED" on the other hand, I can invoke on any defense roll that I take for as long as the Aspect (or consequence) lasts.
--- End quote ---
True enough. But claws don't really expand those options, certainly not compared to the cat's claws menioned previously.
--- Quote from: paul_Harkonen on April 25, 2010, 06:47:00 PM ---Whether they're aspects or consequences doesn't matter much, and as a GM you're going to have to be incredibly convincing for me to allow you to inflict "BLEEDING" without having a weapon that can make someone bleed.
--- End quote ---
Even if you used Inhuman Strength to rip their stomach open, leaving intestines everywhere? That's admittedly more "Gutted" than "Bleeding", but if you aim for the stomach wall and they only take a minor consequence "Bleeding" might be quite appropriate. You can likely do the same as a mortal with the Lethal Weapon stunt.
It's all about how vicious you're willing to be.
--- Quote from: paul_Harkonen on April 25, 2010, 06:47:00 PM ---The strength of this system is just how flexible and abstract it is, the weakness is just how flexible and abstract it is.
--- End quote ---
It's abstract in a sense, but it's also surprisingly concrete and balanced. Which is why things like this are a problem for me, since they stick out like sore thumbs (at least to me).
--- Quote from: paul_Harkonen on April 25, 2010, 06:47:00 PM ---As for using Claws as an easy expression for other attributes (like horns) why don't you just make up a different power? As is pretty specifically stated, nothing in Your Story, or Our World is a shopping list, it is not comprehensive, and it is not the end all be all. You want a different power, make a different power, talk to your GM, and if it's reasonable you will almost certainly be allowed to take it.
--- End quote ---
Except that the book explicitly tells you to use Claws for things like that. So alot of people will feel obligated to take the listed power, just because that's how these things work.
If the book were out with no chance of errata, I'd be suggesting house rules as opposed to revising the book...but they are in fact still revising the book. So I'm suggesting that.
--- Quote from: paul_Harkonen on April 25, 2010, 06:47:00 PM ---Powers are not mechanics, if you want to do something cool, do it. Instead of changing the powers that you don't think are perfect, make one that you think is.
--- End quote ---
As stated above, I'm not really doing this for me. I'm used to house ruling the hell out of games (the DFRPG a hell of a lot less than most)...but the people behind the game are actually here reading, at least potentially, and if a group of people bring an issue to their attention, they're likely to look at it and maybe even change it, which (if it's a change for the better, and it's likely to be or they wouldn't make it) improves the game for all those people who are hesitant about making house rules and changes.
paul_Harkonen:
--- Quote from: Moriden on April 25, 2010, 06:52:02 PM ---Some story tellers will view any attempt to make custom powers or change power as "cheese wheasily attempts to power game" regardless of weather or not such is intended to be part of the system.
--- End quote ---
This is a failing of those story tellers, and in fact, those same story tellers are the ones least likely to actually use this sort of house rule.
--- Quote from: Moriden on April 25, 2010, 06:52:02 PM ---Do some research into martial arts. its trivially easy to make a person bleed with bare hands. not to mention far more crippling aspects such as, plucked out your eye
--- End quote ---
It is pretty easy to make someone bleed, it's not particularly easy to draw five 6 inch long, half inch deep gashes down someone's back. Or particularly easy to take a chunk out of someone's leg without a natural or man-made weapon. You are correct about "MISSING AN EYE" but the claws add to the flexibility of your attacks.
One last note because I noticed it earlier, but no one has said anything about it. Why are we assuming that powers are supposed to be more powerful than stunts? Powers allow you to do things that mortals can't, that doesn't mean they are meant to allow you to do them better for less. In fact, Stunts are supposed to give you (roughly) two shifts of effect per point of refresh. Powers are supposed to also give you two shifts of effect per point of refresh (YS 158 and YS 148 respectively)
It's true about trying to make the adjustment to the power level before the books are printed, and that makes sense. That said, if your fix is "add one to the physical stress" or "reduce the refresh by one" it seems to push the balance the other way. No mortal stunt allows you to take one refresh for +2 stress to any physical attack (in fact, it is explicitly stated that stunts should not work that way (YS 147)). Inhuman Strength adds 2 stress for purely strength attacks, true, and perhaps Claws ought to have some other effect (such as climbing or other elements) built in explicitly to the entry, but I don't see a compelling reason why 1 refresh = 2 stress.
Finally, there is no reason to take Claws the power over Cat's Claws the item. This seems perfectly reasonable to me. Powers don't have to be better than normal humans. A well prepared, high skill, high stunt mortal should be able to emulate the abilities of magical characters, even if only for the sake of game balance and giving people a reason to play a mortal.
Moriden:
--- Quote ---Finally, there is no reason to take Claws the power over Cat's Claws the item. This seems perfectly reasonable to me.
--- End quote ---
If a power can be entirely simulated by an easily obtainable mundane item. then there is no reason to ever take that power. this is a flaw in a system.
Falar:
--- Quote ---Why are we assuming that powers are supposed to be more powerful than stunts?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Supernatural powers are very much the same as stunts, although they tend to pack more of a wallop. However, they often have more requirements before they can be taken—usually, at the very least, a high concept aspect indicating that the abilities represented by the supernatural powers are appropriate to the character.
--- End quote ---
-Your Story, 146
Taking a look at the power before Claws, Breath Weapon, you'll note that it is 2 refresh for a Ranged, Weapon:2 that is automatically concealed. On the other side, Claws is a Weapon:1. Period. You can't use it at ranged, it's by default seen. If you get it to Weapon:2, it's actually competitive with Breath Weapon instead of being solidly outclassed by it.
paul_Harkonen:
"Pack more of a wallop" is due to higher refresh costs.
--- Quote ---They're built much like several mortal stunts all smashed together, getting two shifts (and maybe a little extra) of shift for every one refresh point they cost.
--- End quote ---
-Your Story 158, emphasis mine
--- Quote from: Falar on April 25, 2010, 07:32:22 PM ---Taking a look at the power before Claws, Breath Weapon, you'll note that it is 2 refresh for a Ranged, Weapon:2 that is automatically concealed. On the other side, Claws is a Weapon:1. Period. You can't use it at ranged, it's by default seen. If you get it to Weapon:2, it's actually competitive with Breath Weapon instead of being solidly outclassed by it.
--- End quote ---
I want to say that I agree that there is a power discrepancy between the powers. I disagree that Claws is vastly underpowered, and feel that either solution makes them more powerful than is intended. I also want to note that Breath weapon is ranged and a wpn 2, but that it does not stack with any other effect, giving claws an advantage in many cases. Plus your breath weapon is useless against a fairly large number of targets (no matter what element you pick).
I will say that a bonus to certain maneuvers would not be out of line. Another option is to add an upgrade to them "Supernaturally Sharp\hard". For one extra refresh you could add two points of shift (for a total of -2 refresh and +3 effect, a perfectly reasonable number in my mind) to the effect.
--- Quote from: Moriden on April 25, 2010, 07:24:16 PM ---If a power can be entirely simulated by an easily obtainable mundane item. then there is no reason to ever take that power. this is a flaw in a system.
--- End quote ---
This is not true on either count.
A) You can take this power if you want your wolf\cat\bear form to have any sort of weapon. The reasons are cosmetic\character driven. There is no rules reason to take them, but that does not mean there is no reason to take the power.
B) Mundane and supernatural powers being interchangeable is not a flaw in the system. In fact, the option to do one thing many ways seems like a strength to the system to me.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version