The Dresden Files > DFRPG
"By Invitation Only" - 2nd, 3rd and 4th law loopholes?
exploding_brain:
There are some gray areas of the second, third and fourth laws that aren't discussed in the DFRPG, or in novels for that matter. Is it permissible to enter another's mind, or to make changes to another's mind or body, provided you have that person's explicit permission and cooperation?
Obviously the practical dangers of these activities would still be a problem, and a make these activities quite risky, but, in terms of metaphysical stain on the soul, I wonder what the effect of the following actions might be. I'll assume that Wardens would likely execute you anyway, cause, hey, warden.
The third law specifically outlaws invading another's mind. That may imply that it is permitted to enter another's mind, provided they invite you in.
How does the second law distinguish between transforming another and healing them? Is it a matter of intent, or an issue of the person's "natural form", or harmful side effects? What if I want you to turn me into a wolf. What if I just want you to change my hair color, or the shape of my face, or help me grow a beard more quickly?
The fourth law forbids Enthralling another. Again, there's an implication that the change is being made to the other's mind against their will. What if I ask you to alter my mind, or to help me alter it?
Some examples:
I'm afraid I may have been enthralled by another. Can you look inside my mind to find out?
I've been transformed by a warlock. Can you restore my body?
I've been enthralled by a warlock. Can you mitigate some of the damage that was done to my mind?
I need to know how to diffuse a bomb. Please put that skill in my head.
I need you to know how to diffuse a bomb. Please read my mind to acquire that skill.
I'm learning how to become a werewolf, but my ability to transform myself isn't quite there yet. Turn me into a wolf so that I can practice a wolf's physical skills, then change me back.
I'm being hunted by Red-Court vampires. I need a disguise. Change the way I smell, change my hair color, rapid grow my beard, make me a little taller, alter my cheek bones a bit.
I lost my hand, help me regrow it.
I have sickle-cell anemia. It's a genetic disease, so it's my "natural" form. Make a tiny change to one particular gene in the cells of my bone marrow, and I'll be free of the disease.
I need to stop smoking. Help me plant a suggestion in my own mind that will help me pause, for just a tiny moment, before grabbing that cigarette.
How would you handle stuff like this in your game. Maybe a discipline roll against the complexity of the effect to resist taking shortcuts that would violate the laws on a metaphysical level?
Deadmanwalking:
Personally, I'd say that the 3rd Law can be avoided if there's consent. The 2nd and 4th Laws can also be avoided even without consent, but only to return someone to their natural state (ie: break a transformation or mind control spell), and I'd say consent doesn't help to avoid them.
I don't think healing ala regrowing hands or fixing sickle cell anemia counts as "Transforming Another", and putting an anti-smoking compulsion in someone's head is both a bad idea, and a 4th Law Violation.
All of these are obviously judgement calls, however. It's very much an individual GM call.
Moriden:
its important to remember that the laws have absolutely nothing to do with morality. so weather the action is good evil or doesn't hurt anyone is irrelevant.
All of your examples come down to basically two points. ill note that i don't necessarily agree with these and may or may not run them in this manner if/when i run. and the official answer to all law questions is "whatever your st says"
Transformation is transformation:
one of the biggest problem with trying to transform another beneficially/benignly is that you very probably don't know how. Can a person be healed by magic instantly ? sure the fairy queens have done it repeatedly. however harry also says that magical healing cant do anything that modern science cant. now out of those two im going with the example that actually happened over the opinion of a wizard who is admittedly bad at subtle magic. But the problem an aspiring healer needs to face is that to affect the body on that level and to do so in such a manor as to do more good then bad. you need to understand exactly how the body works For fae its claimed that that's not terribly important because there magic takes care of that part for them, And my interpretation of there method is that there not actually "healing" you there simply transforming you whole into a "healthy body" using the statement that healing magic cant do anything modern science cant and cant make you heal faster. [although this is contradicted by Elaine's rieki spell} as to why is transforming somone who wants you to a violation of the law, but doing it to yourself isn't? honestly i don't know, but my assumption is that your you, you understand who you are on a level that you will never know another person, so its actually possible[ if still hard] to transform yourself back to your base self and to know what you actually want when changing yourself. without breaking the mind reading law you can never have that knowledge of another.
All actions that permit you to know the thoughts of another, or change the way they think are violations of that person.
this was actually gone into under the law section in the book i believe and i think they did a pretty good job on justifieing this one, something about "crossing a barrier that you aren't meant to"
exploding_brain:
So would you say that a PC would need to immediately take the appropriate Lawbreaker Stunt in all of those cases? That's what I was getting at when was talking about the metaphysical implications of the actions. I should have been more explicit.
Falar:
--- Quote from: exploding_brain on April 24, 2010, 08:29:40 PM ---I'm afraid I may have been enthralled by another. Can you look inside my mind to find out?
--- End quote ---
This one, I personally don't see much of a problem with. I think it falls under one of the many grey areas that Butcher alludes to through Harry. I don't think the twisting of the mind would really attach. Granted, my game, my rules.
My Ruling: No Lawbreaker. Wardens might disagree.
--- Quote ---I've been transformed by a warlock. Can you restore my body?
--- End quote ---
This one is an edge case. I can see the case for allowing it, but I can also see the case for it being a short slide from just doing it this way to using it the other. Granted, my game, my rules.
My Ruling: Lawbreaker attaches.
--- Quote ---I've been enthralled by a warlock. Can you mitigate some of the damage that was done to my mind?
--- End quote ---
Here, I think the answer is just no, as in, it's not possible. Enthralling damages your brain - the only way that I can recall for True Magic to heal damage to your brain is to stay the heck away from it. If you have trauma from enthralling, it seems that your best and perhaps only way to repair it is time. From what I've read. Granted, my game, my rules.
My Ruling: Lawbreaker attaches.
--- Quote ---I need to know how to diffuse a bomb. Please put that skill in my head.
--- End quote ---
There's no way I can see this working. It falls directly under meddling with the brain. And where you might be able to use it for a while, there are going to be unforeseen side effects from the meddling, the brain is going to rebel and it will slowly drive the person mad. Period. That's not how you learn things. Trying to learn it that way will damage the person and also damage you. I really believe that's how it works. Granted, my game, my rules.
My Ruling: Lawbreaker attaches.
--- Quote ---I need you to know how to diffuse a bomb. Please read my mind to acquire that skill.
--- End quote ---
Grey area. It depends on how you do it. I think rooting around in his brain and pulling out all the memories that gave him the knowledge of the skill would probably hurt him. And writing the memories into your skull would damage you. Now, if you had basically a mental conversation with the person, I can see it falling under the grey area where it's not really that easy to tell. Granted, my game, my rules.
My Ruling: Let's see how you did it, and then we'll talk about it.
--- Quote ---I'm learning how to become a werewolf, but my ability to transform myself isn't quite there yet. Turn me into a wolf so that I can practice a wolf's physical skills, then change me back.
--- End quote ---
I think you'd have the same trauma to the brain as you'd have from non-invited. It's not all a matter of the conscious mind - it's also a matter of the subconscious and even below the subconscious. You'd cause damage that would not be able to be repaired through time. And fool yourself into the path of breaking the Law not being so bad. And, shoot, learning how to transform well is the FIRST thing you should be gaining skills in instead of trying to shortcut through it. Granted, my game, my rules.
My Ruling: Lawbreaker attaches.
--- Quote ---I'm being hunted by Red-Court vampires. I need a disguise. Change the way I smell, change my hair color, rapid grow my beard, make me a little taller, alter my cheek bones a bit.
--- End quote ---
So why are you trying to break the Law when you can use much easier and legal magic to achieve the same effect? Take a glamour, maybe tie it to an object that you wear. Boom. Done. No Lawbreaking. I'm not sure why someone would even do it this way. Granted, my game, my rules.
My Ruling: Lawbreaker attaches.
--- Quote ---I lost my hand, help me regrow it.
--- End quote ---
I'm personally not even sure that True Magic can do this. It seems to be able to help with a lot of things if you're good at that kind of magic, but I don't think it can straight regrow you a hand. Granted, my game, my rules.
My Ruling: Lawbreaker attaches, if you can figure out how to do it.
--- Quote ---I have sickle-cell anemia. It's a genetic disease, so it's my "natural" form. Make a tiny change to one particular gene in the cells of my bone marrow, and I'll be free of the disease.
--- End quote ---
Second verse, same as the first. Granted, my game, my rules.
My Ruling: Lawbreaker attaches, if you can figure out how to do it.
--- Quote ---I need to stop smoking. Help me plant a suggestion in my own mind that will help me pause, for just a tiny moment, before grabbing that cigarette.
--- End quote ---
Seriously, I think this is going to have similar side effects to doing it without permission. Mind magic is complex. You're going to end up putting more in that you want, it's going to do brain damage, there's going to be side effects and the wizard is going to end up thinking that doing that isn't so bad and starting his own slide into the Lawbreaking and the devolution into a Warlock. Granted, my game, my rules.
My Ruling: Lawbreaker attaches.
I'm more or less a hardliner for the rules. There are grey areas and I realize that, but a lot of things are just straight out to me, no matter if you have permission to or not.
Edited to Add: Rulings on each case.
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