The Dresden Files > DFRPG Resource Collection
Harry's Stats plus Assorted Other Stat Revisions (Small Favor through Cold Days)
Deadmanwalking:
--- Quote from: Jebm on January 11, 2013, 03:45:36 PM ---Could you do an updated version of Martin and Susan, when you get around to re-reading Changes?. If Vitto gets Deep Cover Agent then Martin definitely should.
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Absolutely. And I'd be tempted to give Martin both Fantastic Deceit and Deep Cover Agent given his skills and proclivities.
Sanctaphrax:
--- Quote from: Deadmanwalking on January 11, 2013, 06:26:16 AM ---That version gives you +4 to Deceit to impersonate them, too. A bonus that big on almost any activity is worth at least one Refresh. This one very likely wouldn't grant any such bonus. Well, it might, but only if you poured more power yet into it, as the shifts of effect would seem likely to replace any such roll.
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Pretty sure the +4 is just supposed to be the situational bonus for looking exactly the same. I dunno how I'd feel about a ritual that duplicated appearance perfectly without that sort of bonus.
--- Quote from: Deadmanwalking on January 11, 2013, 06:26:16 AM ---A 4 shift effect can also conjure a sword, which is possibly Weapon 3 and better than the Claws power, too. And Glamours is pretty much all easily duplicated with pretty low-level rituals...or easily surpassed by higher level ones (and can sub-in for Mimic Form sans +4 bonus as well, now that I think on it). Thaumaturgy being potentially better than particular powers when used properly is nothing new.
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A ritual is better than a single use of Glamours. The point of Glamours is that you can use it freely.
Claws, incidentally, is really only useful for when you're not prepared for a fight or bad at Weapons. In both of those cases conjuring (or buying) a sword doesn't work.
--- Quote from: Deadmanwalking on January 11, 2013, 06:26:16 AM ---EDIT: Another way to think of this is as using Thaumaturgy as a skill replacement for disguise, with shifts equalling out to the difficulty to spot the fakery. Forcing it on someone's harder than that, but that's really all that's meaningfully going on here. It's a bit more permanent than most such effects...but that's as much of a disadvantage as advantage in many ways.
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Except that's not how you defined the effect. If that's the effect you want, use a different shift calculation. And pay for the duration, because permanency is definitely an advantage.
--- Quote from: Deadmanwalking on January 11, 2013, 06:26:16 AM ---Or require taking out the people in question. That does explicitly work, too.
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Actually, lemme quote the book:
--- Quote from: YS page 265 ---The most complex spells outright kill people, leave them permanently insane, or transform them forever. There require enough shifts to bypass the resisting skill and all levels of consequence, including extreme. Victor Sells' killing spell needs 32 shifts to do the job...
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I take this to mean that you actually have to bypass all levels of consequence. Not just the levels of consequence that the victim has available.
It could be interpreted differently, but I don't think it should be. These spells are supposed to be a big deal. They shouldn't be easy.
--- Quote from: Deadmanwalking on January 11, 2013, 06:26:16 AM ---Hmmm. That'd probably work...but it's still a little shaky as an in-world justification...
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What?
Harry goes on and on about how difficult and dangerous it is to make yourself stronger temporarily. Why would making yourself stronger permanently be easier?
Deadmanwalking:
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 11, 2013, 09:26:57 PM ---Pretty sure the +4 is just supposed to be the situational bonus for looking exactly the same. I dunno how I'd feel about a ritual that duplicated appearance perfectly without that sort of bonus.
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Fate...doesn't so much have situational bonuses per se. It's the bonus provided by that method of looking the same. I'd interpret it as including, via the same sympathetic magic as assuming their likeness, perfect vocal duplication and probably body language as well, while other methods might lack those. Corpsetaker's certainly lacks the body language duplication, for example.
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 11, 2013, 09:26:57 PM ---A ritual is better than a single use of Glamours. The point of Glamours is that you can use it freely.
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True! You can use Mimic Form freely without a big ritual too. It requires a piece of them, sure, but it doesn't require additional time, effort, or rolls beyond that.
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 11, 2013, 09:26:57 PM ---Claws, incidentally, is really only useful for when you're not prepared for a fight or bad at Weapons. In both of those cases conjuring (or buying) a sword doesn't work.
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Brass knuckles would in the second case, and are almost as good (Weapon 1 vs. Weapon 2). The first case....well yeah, same thing as Glamour above. That's the usual downside of Thaumaturgy. That it requires prep.
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 11, 2013, 09:26:57 PM ---Except that's not how you defined the effect. If that's the effect you want, use a different shift calculation. And pay for the duration, because permanency is definitely an advantage.
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My point isn't necessarily that that's how you build the spell (which would indeed involve duration), it's a note that a switch like this is really no better than that spell...and thus shouldn't be that many more shifts.
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 11, 2013, 09:26:57 PM ---Actually, lemme quote the book:
I take this to mean that you actually have to bypass all levels of consequence. Not just the levels of consequence that the victim has available.
It could be interpreted differently, but I don't think it should be. These spells are supposed to be a big deal. They shouldn't be easy.
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That's a really iffy interpretation that I disagree with completely. Killing someone who's almost dead is easier than someone completely healthy, and there's no reason doing it with Thaumaturgy would change that.
But it almost doesn't matter for purposes of Corpsetaker, since what she does is via Thaumaturgy-as-Evocation, which can surely kill or transform in a more normal combat sense via multiple attacks or the whole point of using it as Evocation is lost and fails to make sense.
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 11, 2013, 09:26:57 PM ---What?
Harry goes on and on about how difficult and dangerous it is to make yourself stronger temporarily. Why would making yourself stronger permanently be easier?
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Not...per se. He talks about the difficulties of various methods, which isn't quite the same thing.
Sanctaphrax:
--- Quote from: Deadmanwalking on January 11, 2013, 10:04:16 PM ---Fate...doesn't so much have situational bonuses per se.
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It has some. Read Hairpin Maestro, Cloak Of Shadows, and any Speed Power.
--- Quote from: Deadmanwalking on January 11, 2013, 10:04:16 PM ---That's a really iffy interpretation that I disagree with completely. Killing someone who's almost dead is easier than someone completely healthy, and there's no reason doing it with Thaumaturgy would change that.
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Killing someone whose reputation has been destroyed without their knowledge is also easier than killing someone with a solid reputation.
Consequences aren't just vitality. They're a form of plot armour.
When Harry sees the heart-explodey spell's results he is shocked and awed. Why would he have been, if killing spells can be cast for 3 shifts?
Also, your interpretation would also allow people to just not defend or take consequences against transformations. So all transformations can be cast at base complexity, no problem.
--- Quote from: Deadmanwalking on January 11, 2013, 10:04:16 PM ---But it almost doesn't matter for purposes of Corpsetaker, since what she does is via Thaumaturgy-as-Evocation, which can surely kill or transform in a more normal combat sense via multiple attacks or the whole point of using it as Evocation is lost and fails to make sense.
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Evothaum works the same way normal Thaumaturgy does. It doesn't get around normal limitations, except insofar as it is faster and less risky.
And yes, that makes it pretty pointless to use in combat time unless you can call up a load of shifts. That's not rare, for evothaum.
Corpsetaker's trick just isn't easily doable with the set of canon Powers. It's written the way it's written in OW for a reason.
Deadmanwalking:
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 11, 2013, 10:30:26 PM ---It has some. Read Hairpin Maestro, Cloak Of Shadows, and any Speed Power.
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Sure, a few, but they're usually called out as such. That one isn't. Indeed, it's based on the quality of what you have to impersonate them with, making it very clearly a facet of the power, not a general rule.
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 11, 2013, 10:30:26 PM ---Killing someone whose reputation has been destroyed without their knowledge is also easier than killing someone with a solid reputation.
Consequences aren't just vitality. They're a form of plot armour.
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They are. But not when they're full. Not for anything. Why would Thaumaturgy be different? That's a serious question, BTW.
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 11, 2013, 10:30:26 PM ---When Harry sees the heart-explodey spell's results he is shocked and awed. Why would he have been, if killing spells can be cast for 3 shifts?
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Because even nameless people have all their Consequences to resist Thaumaturgy? That's always been my interpretation anyway, and it makes something in the 25-30 shift range absolutely necessary to be assured of killing someone.
Or, to look at it another way: Your heart exploding like that will kill anyonemeaning it needs to have enough shifts to do that, regardless of how many were actually necessary in this case. If it'd been something someone tough or lucky could survive (like an inflicted heart attack) Harry would've been less impressed even with the same victims dead, and it might've been a lower shift effect.
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 11, 2013, 10:30:26 PM ---Also, your interpretation would also allow people to just not defend or take consequences against transformations. So all transformations can be cast at base complexity, no problem.
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Only willing ones. That's hardly all.
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 11, 2013, 10:30:26 PM ---Evothaum works the same way normal Thaumaturgy does. It doesn't get around normal limitations, except insofar as it is faster and less risky.
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So, uh, how does Lea turn people into hounds, then, by your interpretation? I'm curious.
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 11, 2013, 10:30:26 PM ---And yes, that makes it pretty pointless to use in combat time unless you can call up a load of shifts. That's not rare, for evothaum.
Corpsetaker's trick just isn't easily doable with the set of canon Powers. It's written the way it's written in OW for a reason.
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I disagree rather completely. As stated above.
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