The Dresden Files > DFRPG
Typo thread
Deadmanwalking:
Awesome. ;D
iago:
Stacked Catch now reads:
Stacked Catch [+varies]. Normally, all your Toughness powers can only receive the refresh rebate effect of one Catch, so you line them all up and choose the best one. If you take Physical Immunity, and have other Toughness abilities already covered by a Catch, you may also receive the refresh rebate of a second Catch. This second Catch may only affect how the Physical Immunity works, and it’s called a Stacked Catch. If you take a Stacked Catch, the first Catch covering the other Toughness powers does not include the Physical Immunity as one of the abilities covered.
For example, let’s say a fire demon has Supernatural Toughness with the Catch that he’s vulnerable to cold. Normally, this would give him a refresh rebate of +3: +2 because cold is easy to come by, and +1 because research would normally uncover it.
In addition, he has physical immunity to damage from any kind of fire. The Catch is that it only applies to attacks with fire. Normally, this would give a rebate of +5: +2 for protecting against only one specific thing, +2 because “not fire” is easy to come by, and +1 because research would normally uncover it.
Because you can stack these two refresh benefits, the demon gets a total of +8 toward his Toughness powers, so his total refresh cost is only –4 (–4 for Supernatural Toughness, –8 for Physical Immunity, +8 for the stacked benefit).
A character with a Stacked Catch that that inverts the conditions of the first Catch is strongly discouraged. A Physical Immunity to Fire layered on top of Supernatural Toughness that can only be pierced by Fire just never happens in reality, and if it did, one or both Catches would be rightly valued as worth zero.
arentol:
--- Quote from: iago on May 03, 2010, 01:07:08 AM ---I think some of these questions come from a willful misinterpretation of the obvious spirit of the rules. As such I'm gonna get a bit snarky about it. Fair warning.
#1 - The Stacked Catch only applies if you already have another catch applying to your other Toughness powers. There are no other Toughness powers in #1, so the principle of biggest value catch applies, netting only a +5 value.
--- End quote ---
From a pure wording standpoint it says that you get a catch for "your toughness abilities" and PI is a toughness ability, therefore you should get a catch for the general group of abilities known as "toughness abilities", then you should get a stacked catch for PI, even though PI is the only ability you have. OBVIOUSLY this is not what is intended, but it is still a way in which it can be interpreted by someone trying exploit the system and should probably be clarified.
Another issue:
"Catches cannot reduce the cost of your Toughness powers below –1."
Because "Toughness" is the name of the sum of all powers in this heading it is not completely clear whether this applies to your toughness powers as a whole, or to each individually. Obviously you meant individually, but that is not clear from the text as written.
This also brings up another issue. By looking over how various creatures in OW are set up it is obvious that it doesn't matter how much the "The Catch" is "worth" if the only toughness power you have aside from PI is Inhuman Recovery then "The Catch" MUST be reduced to +1, and this applies before a Stacked Catch is applied. Similarly, if you have Inhuman Recovery and Inhuman Toughness then "The Catch" MUST be reduced to +2, no matter how much it is actually worth, all before a Stacked Catch is applied... Supernatural toughness and Inhuman Recovery and a Catch worth +5? Nope, must be reduced to +4.
HOWEVER, that is not what the text actually says. It merely says that Catches cannot reduce the cost of toughness powers below -1. It doesn't actually say that you can't have a catch worth more than the powers value.
I can forsee someone doing the following without realizing why it is wrong:
Inhuman Recovery -2
Inhuman Toughness -2
Physical Immunity -8
The Catch +5
The Catch (stacked) +5
Total: -3 (minimum -1 per power)
Should be:
Inhuman Recovery -2
Inhuman Toughness -2
Physical Immunity -8
The Catch +2
The Catch (stacked) +5
Total: -5
iago:
--- Quote from: arentol on May 03, 2010, 01:39:51 AM ---"Catches cannot reduce the cost of your Toughness powers below –1."
Because "Toughness" is the name of the sum of all powers in this heading it is not completely clear whether this applies to your toughness powers as a whole, or to each individually. Obviously you meant individually, but that is not clear from the text as written.
--- End quote ---
Come again? Obviously we meant *as a whole*.
That's why the text reads "This will give you a discount on the overall cost of any and all Toughness powers that you take, "
"Overall cost" means total cost. Total. Of the powers in the Toughness category. I'll warrant that we should make it more clear (despite explicitly referencing Recovery abilities later in the Catch description) that Toughness means Toughness Category, and that will happen tonight. But I think anyone claiming that we're muddying whether it applies to powers individually is failing to read the above quoted phrase correctly (or simply failing to read it, period).
--- Quote ---This also brings up another issue. By looking over how various creatures in OW are set up it is obvious that it doesn't matter how much the "The Catch" is "worth" if the only toughness power you have aside from PI is Inhuman Recovery then "The Catch" MUST be reduced to +1, and this applies before a Stacked Catch is applied. Similarly, if you have Inhuman Recovery and Inhuman Toughness then "The Catch" MUST be reduced to +2, no matter how much it is actually worth, all before a Stacked Catch is applied... Supernatural toughness and Inhuman Recovery and a Catch worth +5? Nope, must be reduced to +4.
--- End quote ---
Er, no, if you have Inhuman Toughness and Inhuman Recovery, a total of -4 Refresh, then your maximum Catch is +3.
If you have Supernatural Toughness and Inhuman Recovery, a total of -6 Refresh, your maximum Catch is +5.
We see no problem here.
arentol:
--- Quote from: iago on May 03, 2010, 01:42:20 AM ---Come again? Obviously we meant *as a whole*.
That's why the text reads "This will give you a discount on the overall cost of any and all Toughness powers that you take, "
"Overall cost" means total cost. Total. Of the powers in the Toughness category. I'll warrant that we should make it more clear (despite explicitly referencing Recovery abilities later in the Catch description) that Toughness means Toughness Category, and that will happen tonight. But I think anyone claiming that we're muddying whether it applies to powers individually is failing to read the above quoted phrase correctly (or simply failing to read it, period).
--- End quote ---
Okay, Overall cost of the powers in the toughness category, so this is acceptable then:
Inhuman Recovery -2
Inhuman Toughness -2
The Catch +5
Physical Invulnerability -8
The Catch (Stacked) +6
Total = -1
Also still not resolved is how Human Form applies when used with only one of the two toughness powers and therefore the exact value of that power is not known.
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