The Dresden Files > DFRPG
Koreanizing the Dresden Files
lokisdottir:
--- Quote from: Bosh on February 01, 2010, 02:14:33 PM ---Basically I don't much like the explanation in the Dresden Files for how the supernatural stays under the radar (humans are dumb, passive and incurious) and the traditions are too old for supernatural power to be a new thing, so the supernatural being resurgent after a period of weakness (and every bit of supernatural truth being well-guarded with a bodyguard of lies) makes sense to me.
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I like that, too. The reemergence of the supernatural after comparative dormancy could make a fun campaign premise in of itself, and has implications for the war with the Red Court, too. I think I'll run with it for my own campaign, even if it's not canon. And hey, Harry never made any pretense of being all-knowing, so it could very well fit pretty snugly into the canon.
--- Quote ---To look at things from a slightly different tack, where exactly does supernatural power come from in the Dresden files and how does that translate in Korean terms (the following probably makes things more systematic than Jim intended, but it makes sense to me):
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That works for me, too, by and large. It looks like a great way to look at supernatural powers systematically. I especially like the explanation for death curses.
--- Quote ---2. 풍수/Geomantic/elemental forces: in the book they’re described as ley lines and although I don’t think it’s exactly canon I think of them as bits of the Nevernever leaking into the world through various weak points.
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That's one way to look at it, but I see 풍수/geomancy as a more inherent rather than alien or otherworldly power. It's the characteristics of the land itself that give rise to the supernatural qualities.
--- Quote ---4. That leaves the Old Gods, they’re a bit fuzzy. Are they creatures of the Nevernever like the Fae but different, are they constructs that exist because people believe in them (kind of like in American Gods by Neil Gaiman?) or did they get their mojo by eating lots and lots of souls and growing strong from that (like the necromancers try to do by eating all of the souls of the ghosts of Chicago). They’re the most unclear bit of the Dresden Mythos and I’m not sure what to do with them.
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They could also be nature spirits, like how Haemosu is a being of sunlight and Habaek is a river guardian, Bear-Woman is, well, a bear and so on. These could be the very parts of the supernatural who were weakened by the tampering with geomancy but are recently resurgent.
--- Quote ---G. Shape shifters: a lot of them in Korean myth seem to be animals that have figured out how to turn into humans rather than the other way ‘round, which we only have one example of in the Dresden books, but that’s something to extrapolate off of. Although they do get a bit weird with the liver eating and whatnot.
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Nine-tailed foxes (구미호) could be a subset of "things that feed on humans," since the eating of the liver is an act of absorbing the essence of the victim--and the victim would obviously have to die, thus releasing the soul-energy. These beings could be the intersection between nature spirits and vampires, that is animals who gained an extra oomph by feeding on humans.
--- Quote ---I. Taoists: like you said, they’re the closest thing to White Council Wizards (the long lifespans are a dead giveaway).
K. 기-manipulation/수박/Martial artist dudes: the way I interpret these guys is that they are really good at using the power of the human soul in a very focused way. I see them as doing the same sort of things as White Court vampires (more strength, more speed, faster healing, emotional manipulation, etc.) for the same sorts of reasons but through finesse (via training) rather than brute force (via eating souls). Probably I’ll use some of the White Court vampire rules for these guys, but with a different set of limitations (i.e. no eating souls necessary).
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There's some overlap between the Taoist ideas of using life force and the martial arts practitioners' training, especially in the martial adventure genre of fiction. I see most of the martial dudes as focused practitioners who are very good at one thing, like most shamans. A few of the martial arts dudes are or have the potential to be really scary all-around practitioners, the highest level of Taoists who are probably White Council material. Traditionally these practioners, the 신선 who reached the Taoist ideal, are transcendent and detached beings who are at one with nature, hanging out in remote mountains and so on. They're hermits, basically. But of course, their more recent disciples might not have the same ideas.
Oh, and here's one major difference between the Taoists and the White Council. Traditionally, the abilities of the former do not depend on bloodline at all. It was a way of living and training, not something that was inborn. So either Taoism would have to be altered for the Dresden universe to fit the mythos of the books, or magic in Asia could work differently.
--- Quote ---J. Buddhist monks: most of them would be good at building up Thresholds and burying bodies in a way that helps keep them from turning into ghosts, but some would have some power beyond that. Buddhism, in general, doesn’t have the force in Korea that it has in a lot of other Asian countries however…
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Speaking of Buddhism, there are a few bhodisatta (those who endeavor to transcend and become Buddha) who were born again and again and have tremendous enlightenment, but deliberately held themselves back from the complete transcendence of Buddha so they could help fellow mortals. These bhodisatta might or might not be monks, though they would tend to be eventually drawn to Buddhism, and they probably have more supernatural powers than most. Many evil spirits, for instance, really wouldn't want to tangle with someone who could have transcended the material universe but chose not to out of sheer mercy. The bhodisatta could be a wise and formidably powerful old monk or a kid or housewife or anyone, since they keep being reborn. Also, they might be able to delve into the memory of their former lives, which could help solve mysteries with a historical element.
Of course, introducing the concept of samsara (the cycle of death and rebirth) into a campaign could be problematic, given how Hell is very real in the Dresden universe. Agh, the afterlife hurts my brain.
Bosh:
lokisdottir:
--- Quote ---I like that, too. The reemergence of the supernatural after comparative dormancy could make a fun campaign premise in of itself, and has implications for the war with the Red Court, too. I think I'll run with it for my own campaign, even if it's not canon. And hey, Harry never made any pretense of being all-knowing, so it could very well fit pretty snugly into the canon.
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Right, the series hardly gives the impression that Harry has a solid grounding in supernatural history and a lot of his explanations of why humans don't know about the supernatural can reflect his own biases and sense of responsibility.
--- Quote ---That's one way to look at it, but I see 풍수/geomancy as a more inherent rather than alien or otherworldly power. It's the characteristics of the land itself that give rise to the supernatural qualities.
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That would be more in line with traditional Korean thought. With this level of theorizing, what to do with the Nevernever then? Is it a reflection of natural forces on the Earth or something more alien?
--- Quote ---They could also be nature spirits, like how Haemosu is a being of sunlight and Habaek is a river guardian, Bear-Woman is, well, a bear and so on. These could be the very parts of the supernatural who were weakened by the tampering with geomancy but are recently resurgent.
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Yes, that works well for a religion such as old-school Korean shamanism.
--- Quote ---Nine-tailed foxes (구미호) could be a subset of "things that feed on humans," since the eating of the liver is an act of absorbing the essence of the victim--and the victim would obviously have to die, thus releasing the soul-energy. These beings could be the intersection between nature spirits and vampires, that is animals who gained an extra oomph by feeding on humans.
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Hmmmm, in the context of the Dresden canon, 구미호 seem a bit like Winter Court fey. They even do the whole tricking people into marrying them thing which pops up in one of the Dresden Files short stories.
--- Quote ---There's some overlap between the Taoist ideas of using life force and the martial arts practitioners' training, especially in the martial adventure genre of fiction.
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I think I'll have to give my Chuang-tzu (장자) a reread. Some seriously trippy stuff in there and a much better source of gameable stuff than the Tao Te Ching, now that I'm thinking of that some of the stuff in there (like the parable of the butcher) could apply well to martial arts stuff as well.
--- Quote ---Oh, and here's one major difference between the Taoists and the White Council. Traditionally, the abilities of the former do not depend on bloodline at all. It was a way of living and training, not something that was inborn. So either Taoism would have to be altered for the Dresden universe to fit the mythos of the books, or magic in Asia could work differently.
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Well in terms of the RPG rules there seem to be three skills that govern magic: Conviction, Discipline and Lore.
Harry is long on Conviction (its hard to imagine a less Taoist mage than Harry so that colors a lot of how the magic of the books look) and the kind of raw power he has would be the sort of thing that would be tied to bloodline.
But that leaves Discipline and Lore. For Lore I'm thinking that the Neo-Platonic/Hermetic/Alchemist tradition would probably be strongest here and that stuff doesn't talk about inborn power either. For Discipline, I'm thinking that the Taoists would have that as their strong suit, so with that as their apex skill (usually) their magic would have a different feel from Harry's.
In the Dresden File books it says that EVERYONE is capable of doing a little bit of magic with the proper training but most people never do and even with the proper training regular people couldn't do much. The Taoists would probably disagree with Harry on that point and think that with the proper training anyone can do the important magical stuff by using more finesse instead of Harry-style brute force. For example:
"Prince Huei's cook was cutting up a bullock. Every blow of his hand, every heave of his shoulders, every tread of his foot, every thrust of his knee, every whshh of rent flesh, every chhk of the chopper, was in perfect rhythm, --like the dance of the Mulberry Grove, like the harmonious chords of Ching Shou.
"Well done!" cried the Prince. "Yours is skill indeed!"
"Sire," replied the cook laying down his chopper, "I have always devoted myself to Tao, which is higher than mere skill. When I first began to cut up bullocks, I saw before me whole bullocks. After three years' practice, I saw no more whole animals. And now I work with my mind and not with my eye. My mind works along without the control of the senses. Falling back upon eternal principles, I glide through such great joints or cavities as there may be, according to the natural constitution of the animal. I do not even touch the convolutions of muscle and tendon, still less attempt to cut through large bones.
"A good cook changes his chopper once a year, -- because he cuts. An ordinary cook, one a month, -- because he hacks. But I have had this chopper nineteen years, and although I have cut up many thousand bullocks, its edge is as if fresh from the whetstone. For at the joints there are always interstices, and the edge of a chopper being without thickness, it remains only to insert that which is without thickness into such an interstice. Indeed there is plenty of room for the blade to move about. It is thus that I have kept my chopper for nineteen years as though fresh from the whetstone.
"Nevertheless, when I come upon a knotty part which is difficult to tackle, I am all caution. Fixing my eye on it, I stay my hand, and gently apply my blade, until with a hwah the part yields like earth crumbling to the ground. Then I take out my chopper and stand up, and look around, and pause with an air of triumph. Then wiping my chopper, I put it carefully away."
"Bravo!" cried the Prince. "From the words of this cook I have learned how to take care of my life.""
From the Chuang-tzu
Think of that in terms of magic. Harry hacks, so he needs a lot of power to get his work done. But a good Taoist doesn't need as much power to get the job done, so they don't talk much about the kind of inborn talent that helps you hack. So in the Dresdenverse, Taoist wizards would be much more willing to train people with a level of talent that most White Council wizards would turn their noses up at. I don't think it takes much straining of the Dresden Canon to have it be possible for someone without much going for them in terms of inborn talent but a hundred years of training and the right mentality being able to stand toe to toe with Harry. A lot of the hedge mages we see hanging out at McAnally's are capable of a lot more (with the right state of mind and decades upon decades of expert training) but all the White Council does with them is make sure they don't hurt themselves and don't break the Laws of Magic.
--- Quote ---Speaking of Buddhism, there are a few bhodisatta (those who endeavor to transcend and become Buddha) who were born again and again and have tremendous enlightenment, but deliberately held themselves back from the complete transcendence of Buddha so they could help fellow mortals.
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Those would be great to include as long as they don't help fellow mortals too much and make the PCs' job too easy :)
--- Quote ---Of course, introducing the concept of samsara (the cycle of death and rebirth) into a campaign could be problematic, given how Hell is very real in the Dresden universe. Agh, the afterlife hurts my brain.
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Agreed. I think my thoughts are going in the same basic direction as yours on this subject.
For the gods/hell/heaven/devils/etc., going waaaaaaaay off topic here, but one thing I'm not sure I like about Dresden Canon is the White God/Devil stuff (or at least what Harry Dresden thinks, he could of course be very wrong). Now I like how the Knights of the Cross work and the Denarians are a great idea that I love, but for the rest it seems that there's sooooooooooo many supernatural stories out there where the Catholic Church is your basic bunch of white hats or the church gets greyed up by having angels and the hierarchy be Lawful Stupid assholes. And, like you say, the Dresdenverse's Christianisms preclude samsara/reincarnation. My brain wants to do something more along the lines of:
-The White God is more of an overarching force of Order/differentiation/stasis that is just as much Vishnu as YHWH who works through a variety of religions. Then add in sky gods of every myth (the Olympian half of the Olympian/Cthonic split), Ahura Mazda, the Gnostic Demiurge, Jungian/Campbellian blather about the conscious mind and mythic representations of it and blend it all together according to the Rule of Cool. Have the White God not be so much good as wanting A Place for Everything and Everything in It's Place, which more often than not is good for humans. But how to pull this off without going back to "angels are Lawful Stupid assholes"? Hmmmmmm.
-For the devils (Denarians etc.) there's some hints that there's more to them than pure evil (Lash etc.), so maybe mix in some Shiva and Jewish conceptions of STN to grey them up a bit. Mix in Greek Cthonic cults, Jungian/Cambellian blather about the unconscious mind, a heavy dose of Lovecraft and other fun stuff like that. Come up with a reason why they're so interested in human souls and you're good to go.
-For the ultimate deity have it either be non-existent or something Gnostic-ish, with all of the weirdness that that implies. Stick in a bunch of Prometheus as well for added fun.
Bosh:
For a less abstract post, I see some of the following groups being active in Seoul:
1. Netizens with magic: there's got to be a thousand websites with information about how to cast spells, especially in the absence of many white council people looking for apprentices. 90% of them would be utter BS (perhaps planted) but those 10% are enough to mean that you really really don't want to mess with someone who has a dozen practitioners linked to his Cyworld page. The interconnectedness of the Netizens makes these people potentially powerful if a bit weak individually.
2. Decimated White Council: probably pretty decimated by the vampire war. The Taoist types had headed for the mountains and the foreigners/foreign taught have retreated to the American garrison at Yongsan (with jobs as liaison officers, military contractors, etc.), which they've turned into an anti-Red Court fortress. But the garrison is about to be relocated due to political machinations...
3. Traditionalist practitioners: probably not especially organized, I see a lot of 무당 being hired by various factions rather than having their own organized factions.
4. White Court: they've got to be all over Korean TV and music. The recent spare of celebrity suicides just screams white court. But which families are involved and which emotions do they focus on? Also having one's soul eaten away really does explain the a lot of K-Pop. You probably couldn't throw a stone in some parts of 압구정 without hitting a white court vamp or one of their victims.
5. Jade Court: not sure what to do with them. Any Korean legends of human-eating dead to base them on?
6. Red Court: something about them really screams "foreigner!" to me. There's nothing much like them in Korean myths (well maybe 빨간마스크, but that's pretty modern) and a lot of people say 19th century stories about vampires represent Victorian fears of degenerate diseased fancy-pants foreigners, which map pretty well onto modern Korean worried about degenerate diseased fancy-pants foreigners/교포s. A lot of arrogance and ignorance of Korean tradition from these guys and during the time period when the geomantic powers were weak they grew like kudzu. Probably not massive numbers of them (keep the power from getting too widely distributed) but piles of spit-addicted people, Renfields, etc. I'm imagining a little old grannie vampire of some small/rare lineage working to convert a whole bunch of her lineage (and only her lineage) into vampires while leaving enough alive to produce kids while keeping under the radar of the other red court factions and trying to undermine them.
7. The Moonies: they're too weird not to be up to something...
8. The North Koreans: you better believe that there's a path through the Nevernever that goes right past the DMZ...
9. Geomantic forces: making a big resurgence, especially in the bit of the city within the four gates (Seoul was specifically chosen as geomancy central). I'm seeing some geomantic turning points being the demolition of the old Korean National Museum in 1996 (it was the old Japanese colonial administration building and people said it was made to look like "日" (the first character of Japan), perhaps it was a lynch pin of the whole "screw over Korea's geomantic forces" scheme. The return of the 청계천 would probably also help a lot as well.
10. The 재벌 (Chaebol): they're up to their ears in geomantic experimentation (probably with help from prez. 2MB, his canal project and 청계천 stuff could be interpreted as having geomantic purposes). They could be trying to direct geomantic energies for their own purposes (giant apartment complexes as stand-ins for mountains?) perhaps to direct geomantic energies into the children of 재벌 families, using whole work sites of people as lab rats, having private prisons (think Old Boy). Perhaps a good long-term plot would be to do to Seoul what Harry Dresden did to the Demonreach, which would give you a really staggering amount of power.
11. Marine Veterans: the nickname of these guys is the ghost busters (귀신 잡는) how can we not include them? These marine veterans association is made up of some very scary dudes who are often involved in hard-right activism (some pining for the days of the military dictatorship). I could imagine these guys being a good equivalent for the role that Marcone plays in the books, very useful mortal allies against creepy crawlies but not necessarily people you'd want to hang out with outside of that context.
12. Catholic Church: perhaps infiltrated by the Red Court, to take a page from Thirst (박쥐) (note: 박찬욱 is awesome) and trying to purge its ranks and is now in a defensive crouch.
13. Yoido Full Gospel Church (여의도 순복음 교회): it claims 830,000 members (largest congregation in the world) and is freaking huge. If want want Korean Protestantism Militant, these guys could organize a militia without break a sweat. The Island of Yoido is also a perfect defensive position (in the middle of a river and moving water is perfect for keeping out all kinds of things), so I could imagine these guys keeping the island itself pretty much clear of most anything supernatural.
lokisdottir:
Oh, my GOD.
Bosh... You are awesome.
So much to think about & add thoughts to and I'll take at least a day to get around to it, but for now suffice it to say... man, I think I love you.
Bosh:
--- Quote from: lokisdottir on February 05, 2010, 01:19:13 PM ---Oh, my GOD.
Bosh... You are awesome.
So much to think about & add thoughts to and I'll take at least a day to get around to it, but for now suffice it to say... man, I think I love you.
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Well one of the symptoms of my weird-ass freelancing schedule (two 학원s, one hospital, one corporate job and a 과외) is that I have random chunks of downtime that are too short to go home and get back but long enough to write long-ass posts :)
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