A writer's question about lingual shift

[Kali]

Sounds dirty, but isn't.

So, like most of you I always have story ideas bouncing around my head.  I usually daydream over them, see if there's really anything there that catches my interest.  The latest one is a fantasy novel with a Rip Van Winkle sort of character who wakes up after being asleep (for lack of a better word) for 200 years or so.  He's on the run and ends up at the home of a widowed farmer woman.

In 200 years, there probably hasn't been enough of a shift that they speak different languages.  But it's comparable, more or less, to someone from the early 1800s, late 1700s showing up in our time.  They speak the same language, roughly, but use it differently. 

The problem?  Neither of them speak English, so it wouldn't be appropriate for me to use "thee" and "thou" and all that sort of thing to indicate he's speaking an older form of her language.  So how do I do it?  I don't want to just use descriptive phrases like:

"I don't understand what you're saying but my, this soup is delicious," he said in his old-fashioney words.

Any thoughts?

[Sebastian]

If you're writing the story in non-English, look up how people spoke ~200 years ago and use that.
If you're writing the story in English, you're practically translating their fantasy gibberish anyways and may as well use ~200 years old English. That would be approximately Byron, no?

Beware, though:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YeOldeButcheredeEnglishe

[Shecky]

Read The Forever War by Jack Haldeman for an example of temporal shifts in an otherwise unchanging language. Personally, I think they're done reasonably well, all things considered; the job is HUGE. If I were you, I'd pick some other plot point.

[Blaze]

Languages are plastic, they constantly change as long as they are being spoken, and the meaning of words change constantly.  I think if you seriously research the language in use by Rip Van Winkle as opposed to any current dialect of modern American English there would be grounds for a lot of humor.

Language, slang, accents and especially speed at which we speak. 

To do it well, that would be the trick.  Good luck and keep us posted!

[svb1972]

And also take into account cultural idioms.
If someone, say fell asleep in 1809, and woke up today. 

Would they have any idea what "OMG, I like, totally googlestalked him."  would mean?

Also.  What is the rate of technical/magical advancement in your world.
Has the lives of the average person changed, and how drastically in the last 200 years.
Do they still use horse drawn plows? Or Do they have little magical sprites that prepare the fields.
Were there any big battles, any big wars?  Cultural events.

For example.
If you went to sleep in 1350 and work up in 1550. 
The english spoken would likely not have changed too much, although you might be weirded out by the level of french/english merging.  But an amusing thing.  A now common physical expression (giving someone the middle finger) would be completely incomprehensible to you.  That's because you've never heard of the Battle of Agincourt.  From which that particular expression came from.  There's just alot of things to consider, and that's during a relatively slow period like the dark ages. 


Temporal shift stories are hard to pull off well.

[Kali]

Some great options here, and really good questions.

In this case, there's actually been a technological shift backwards.  The person in question was "frozen" in the middle of a vast war that destroyed the better part of a couple of kingdoms.  Two hundred years on, the population has recovered in numbers but a lot of knowledge was lost and never passed on.  The ability to build the great cities is gone, etc.

It's roughly like ... Picture Alera, if all the furycrafters had been wiped out in the Vord war and no new ones were born.  200 years on, they can't build the road system, have no way to replicate erecting the giant walls of solid stone (tho they would rediscover manual labor to hew big blocks of stone) the cities were decimated along with all the knowledge stored there, etc.

[Sebastian]

And also take into account cultural idioms.
If someone, say fell asleep in 1809, and woke up today. 

Would they have any idea what "OMG, I like, totally googlestalked him."  would mean?

Also.  What is the rate of technical/magical advancement in your world.
Has the lives of the average person changed, and how drastically in the last 200 years.
Do they still use horse drawn plows? Or Do they have little magical sprites that prepare the fields.
Were there any big battles, any big wars?  Cultural events.

For example.
If you went to sleep in 1350 and work up in 1550. 
The english spoken would likely not have changed too much, although you might be weirded out by the level of french/english merging.  But an amusing thing.  A now common physical expression (giving someone the middle finger) would be completely incomprehensible to you.  That's because you've never heard of the Battle of Agincourt.  From which that particular expression came from.  There's just alot of things to consider, and that's during a relatively slow period like the dark ages. 

Temporal shift stories are hard to pull off well.

You’ve also missed Luther, a significant shift from aristocratic feudalism to monarchy, most of the Black Death and subsequent liberation of english serfs, the discovery of America & the sea route to India, throwing the muslims and jews out of Iberia, the abandonment of Greenland, I also think the prevalence of windmills and waterwheels, reasonably certain Turkey conquered lots of the Balkans…

[Starbeam]

Some great options here, and really good questions.

In this case, there's actually been a technological shift backwards.  The person in question was "frozen" in the middle of a vast war that destroyed the better part of a couple of kingdoms.  Two hundred years on, the population has recovered in numbers but a lot of knowledge was lost and never passed on.  The ability to build the great cities is gone, etc.

It's roughly like ... Picture Alera, if all the furycrafters had been wiped out in the Vord war and no new ones were born.  200 years on, they can't build the road system, have no way to replicate erecting the giant walls of solid stone (tho they would rediscover manual labor to hew big blocks of stone) the cities were decimated along with all the knowledge stored there, etc.

Sounds like the flashbacks in the Wheel of Time series, when you get a couple viewpoint flashbacks from the Forsaken characters.

[comprex]

the job is HUGE. If I were you, I'd pick some other plot point.

^This.

I think you're better off having the characters -not- be able to understand each others' words, and emphasizing non-verbal communication on a basis of whatever human condition the characters share.    

An example of such a thing might be what Phillip K. Dick does in 'Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep'.  In that novel, we know the humanity of the person through the empathic reaction.    Interaction through words is for the unfeeling androids.

I think it would probably help if you mapped out exactly which part of being post-modern-human* was gained or lost during this Armageddon you've got in your backstory.  

*And I'm not talking about technology.

[Sebastian]

^This.

I think you're better off having the characters -not- be able to understand each others' words, and emphasizing non-verbal communication on a basis of whatever human condition the characters share.    

An example of such a thing might be what Phillip K. Dick does in 'Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep'.  In that novel, we know the humanity of the person through the empathic reaction.    Interaction through words is for the unfeeling androids.

I think it would probably help if you mapped out exactly which part of being post-modern-human* was gained or lost during this Armageddon you've got in your backstory.  

*And I'm not talking about technology.

Beware ignoring difficulties with non-verbal communications. Like how in Robinson Crusoe they manage advanced theological debate by hand gestures...

[svb1972]

You’ve also missed Luther, a significant shift from aristocratic feudalism to monarchy, most of the Black Death and subsequent liberation of english serfs, the discovery of America & the sea route to India, throwing the muslims and jews out of Iberia, the abandonment of Greenland, I also think the prevalence of windmills and waterwheels, reasonably certain Turkey conquered lots of the Balkans…

You are right, there's allot you've missed.  But I was pointing out that ontop of the big things, little things can change in strange and unforeseen ways.

Basically, you need to map out what the world was like 200 years ago, how it has changed.  What events changed it, and how did those events enter into the lexicon.

There's a great war, that destroyed knowledge and basically set people back at least on the equivalent of the dark ages if not farther.

Hooligans, Vandals, Burburs, Turks.  These are all tribal names, that took on additional meaning over the years/centuries. What did the battles, the attrocities, do.  HOW did all this knowledge vanish.  How did the engineers, architects, scientists, doctors (or their magical equivalents) die?  How close to the brink of destruction did this world come.  Who were the heroes, how did they survive.

There's probably a dozen more questions to answer.  But, once you answer them, that will help you begin to shift the language.

[comprex]

Beware ignoring difficulties with non-verbal communications.

  I'm not ignoring them.   I'm saying to map out conceptual and perception differences that might exist and affect NVC ahead of time, , create an NVC, then sort out the spoken word last, without focusing on language detail.

Like how in Robinson Crusoe they manage advanced theological debate by hand gestures...

Well, I know this one Jesuit who could probably could...

[Kali]

You are right, there's allot you've missed.  But I was pointing out that ontop of the big things, little things can change in strange and unforeseen ways.

Basically, you need to map out what the world was like 200 years ago, how it has changed.  What events changed it, and how did those events enter into the lexicon.

There's a great war, that destroyed knowledge and basically set people back at least on the equivalent of the dark ages if not farther.

Hooligans, Vandals, Burburs, Turks.  These are all tribal names, that took on additional meaning over the years/centuries. What did the battles, the attrocities, do.  HOW did all this knowledge vanish.  How did the engineers, architects, scientists, doctors (or their magical equivalents) die?  How close to the brink of destruction did this world come.  Who were the heroes, how did they survive.

There's probably a dozen more questions to answer.  But, once you answer them, that will help you begin to shift the language.

Thanks for the input, but there's absolutely no way I'm writing an encyclopedia before I write a story.

[Blaze]

Then stick to writing what you KNOW. 

If you write a story and one of the main premises is etymological shift, expect to have the language mavens come down on it hard if you haven't done your research.  If you write about  someone being out of their own time, and the awkwardness of that, and ignore the language shift it will be a flub, but one we are all used to overlooking in popular Science Fiction, which frequently leaves out the tedium of needing translators.

Still, I think it could be worth the extra effort, to do it right.  Especially since words have so much power!  Even if there is no real magic attached to them.

[Kris_W]

Ok, I'm in babble mode this morning -

Neologisms – When you introduce new words, or old words used in a new way, the reader will be looking for internal definitions. It is a really good idea to put one in. Although it is true that not fulfilling this reader expectation can be used to increase tension, you have to do it very, very well because if you screw it up the reader will stop reading. The point where new words are introduced is the point where readers most often decide to abandon a story.   

Slang Back Stories- Use your created slang to tell part of the back story. Figure out the cultural impact of the back story. Make up words and usage that reflects that impact. Choose parts of the history your readers most need to understand to highlight in this way.

Grammar – Don't put all your language change into slang. Spend some time considering changes to grammar. Pull out your favorite grammar handbook (Harbrace or Transitive Vampire or http://englishplus.com/grammar/gsdeluxe.htm or whatever – You DO have a grammar, don't you?) and go through it, writing out examples of how the people in your story would phrase things as opposed to current usage. Keep in mind the effect of contrast in grammatical styles.
Example: A totalitarian society might be reflected in an overwhelming use of passive voice, sprinkled with characters who speak in commands where questions would be used in current American usage.
Example: The cascading structure of multiple prepositions is the hallmark of relaxed, casual, seductive conversation in an otherwise succinct business culture.

Narrative and dialog – Decide whether to use your lingual shift for both narrative and dialog or only dialog. Stick to that decision.  I suppose there could be some case where the dialog is in currant usage and the narrative is shifted, but I can't think of any examples. It is sometimes easier to explain things to the reader if the narrative is in currant usage. However, if the narrative is strictly from the viewpoint of one of the characters then you pretty much have to use the upgraded linguistics in both.

Always keep your audience in mind. No matter how cool your lingual shift is, if the reader has no clue what is going on they aren't going to continue reading.



(Edited because Shecky is better at grammar than I am.)