Author Topic: How powerful should a protagionist be?  (Read 13758 times)

Offline Spectacular Sameth

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Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2007, 02:00:07 PM »
Part of him is also still afraid of getting burned more. It took him what? All of an entire book to just be able to light a candle with magic? Mental scarring as well as physical.

Offline DragonFire

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Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2007, 10:25:02 PM »
Personally, I like to make my main antagonist a bad ass. He's usually tougher than my protaganoist, and he holds about 80% of the cards to.
I also like to have him/her have some tough flunky's that my protaganist can beat up. THat way, he shows he's competent and capable, yet he doesn't feel overpowered.
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Offline Shecky

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Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2007, 10:58:24 PM »
Personally, I like to make my main antagonist a bad ass. He's usually tougher than my protaganoist, and he holds about 80% of the cards to.
I also like to have him/her have some tough flunky's that my protaganist can beat up. THat way, he shows he's competent and capable, yet he doesn't feel overpowered.

Hmm. Sounds like... Cowl?
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Offline DragonFire

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Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2007, 11:48:08 PM »
God is dead - Nietzsche
Nietzsche is dead -God

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
-Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, Aphorism 14

Offline Shecky

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Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2007, 12:54:17 AM »
How so?

Let's see... "tougher than my protagonist" - Harry himself says Cowl's way above him in power, skill and general toughness. "Holds about 80% of the cards" - Cowl knows what's going on, Harry doesn't. "Tough flunkies" - Harry barely beats Cowl's pair, and that's with puh-sychology an' stuff.
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Offline DragonFire

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Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2007, 01:07:15 AM »
Let's see... "tougher than my protagonist" - Harry himself says Cowl's way above him in power, skill and general toughness. "Holds about 80% of the cards" - Cowl knows what's going on, Harry doesn't. "Tough flunkies" - Harry barely beats Cowl's pair, and that's with puh-sychology an' stuff.
WEll, yes, I generally like my antagonist to know his own plans. THat why he holds the cards.

As to the rest, well I mever claimed it was a unique way of creating a protaganist/antagonist power balance.
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Offline meg_evonne

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Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2007, 02:17:07 AM »
I think Butcher has the mix perfect.  Antagonist has it over the protagonist (who isn't too far behind) but manages to win w/ something human or some human characteristic.  Rowling same thing.  L'engle same thing. It's a mix that I happen to love and given the popularity of the authors, must be fairly conmon to tons of readers. 

One could say that Jesus was in the same boat, but that's another thread.   :D
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Offline Shecky

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Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2007, 11:01:28 AM »
WEll, yes, I generally like my antagonist to know his own plans. THat why he holds the cards.

As to the rest, well I mever claimed it was a unique way of creating a protaganist/antagonist power balance.


Oh, no, sorry, wasn't trying to say it wasn't unique or anything like that - simply showing that the formula is a well-used one. I mean, if the antagonist is weaker, the protagonist would whip him regularly, and if he were that much stronger, the protagonist could only win with sheer luck, loads of help and the like.
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2007, 06:08:25 PM »
I also like to have him/her have some tough flunky's that my protaganist can beat up. THat way, he shows he's competent and capable, yet he doesn't feel overpowered.

Problem with this, is that the easy failure mode for this is the completely predictable The Crow: City of Angels plot shape; villain turns up with three or four persons of hench, you know absolutely that the hero will get to fight them each one at a time before a final confrontation with the boss.  Which works for some kinds of video game and more or less works for the kind of movie where showy fight scenes are much of the attraction, but is very easy to make boring in print.

Now a set-up like that in which the boss villain gets unexpectedly shot in the back of the head a third of the way in and the people of hench have to try to put the boss's plan together and do it in different ways and end up working at cross-purposes, that's interesting.  The various necromancers in Dead Beat are doing something similar, come to think of it.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 06:13:55 PM by neurovore »
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Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2007, 06:12:41 PM »
I think Butcher has the mix perfect.  Antagonist has it over the protagonist (who isn't too far behind) but manages to win w/ something human or some human characteristic.

Looking at most of Harry's big end-of-book victories, what they seem to have in common is a gift for lateral thinking, for defeating foes who are stronger head-on by coming at them from unexpected angles.  Which is I suppose a human characteristic, but I like to see thinking getting people places. I have this vague notion that Harry's gift for thinking about how to do unexpected things with defined situations may owe something to having been brought up by a professional stage magician.
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Offline Uilos

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Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2007, 05:18:31 AM »
It is essentially the protagonist's story you're writing about and thus, he/she must have certain issues that the reader could relate to. Such as taking the bus or driving the car to work or take on the bad guys in a battlefield or sneak into the fortress. It's the choices the protagonist makes, rather than the best of his abilities (indeed maybe the lack of his abilities) which makes a charcter who/what we can love and cheer to.

Oh gods and freaks, I think I subconciously quoted JKRowling's Dumbledore of COS :o.

But still, the system works. The character grows, he loses his abilities and makes different choices. You question what if he still had the power and then which way would it force him/her to do the best thing or the right thing.

Indeed, I plan to make my character with super-potential and super-strong but her choices restricts her from acheiving top level. Not to mention getting crippled socially, physically, magically and emotionally (in that order). But remember, what makes a book is the characters. Plural. There are others that would support my protagonist along the way, those she had helped before. They wouldn't want her to give up no matter how much she just wants to lay down and disappear.

So it doesn't matter how tough/weak your protagonist is. Preferably, the tougher he is, the more people needed to bing him down. He could be a god with phenomenal cosmic power but it still comes down to either sacrifice his family/friends so their pure blood can heal the planet or rescue them to a temporary heaven and risk bleeding reality to the demons. It's the walk that goes with the talk ;).


I came across this while writing. In the world I'm writing, there are six types of abilities: Corporeal (strength, flight, intangibility etc.) Elemental (able to control earth, wind or fire.) Mage (able to use magic) psychic (telepathy, oracular powers) Spirit, which is the extremely rare ability to use one's own (or another's) life force and Wild, which is anything that doesn't match the other five abilities.

Now, when/if two of these types mate, the child normally takes on either of the traits of their parents, never both. Hybrids are a rare thing. That being said, my main character is a hybrid and posesses three of the types: Psychic, Mage and Spirit. But because he is a hybrid, he is considered to be a bastard by the Mage side of his family, is recognized but not officially protected by his psychic family, and the others think he's too dangerous.

So the main character is ostricized, not taken seriously, and ultimately shunned, which has both stunted his growth and limited his knowledge and control on his powers (especially magic)

So here's a lesson to all, if your character has too much power, beat him down a notch or two to teach him humility
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Offline meg_evonne

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Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2007, 03:06:33 AM »
Looking at most of Harry's big end-of-book victories, what they seem to have in common is a gift for lateral thinking. I have this vague notion that Harry's gift for thinking about how to do unexpected things with defined situations may owe something to having been brought up by a professional stage magician.

He certainly thinks fast on his feet when things switch course and is quite adept at using the materials he finds around him to his advantage like a stage magician,
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.  I especially love the simple little human things that pop up in situations,
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So when you aren't reading Dresden and your Dad's old books from the 60's what sci fi do you turn to for enjoyment?
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Offline Uilos

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Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2007, 03:38:36 AM »


So when you aren't reading Dresden and your Dad's old books from the 60's what sci fi do you turn to for enjoyment?

Neil Gaiman...
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Offline meg_evonne

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Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2007, 03:53:21 AM »
I've just seen Star Dust, and look forward to reading the book.  I understand there are differences.  Other than Star Dust, which do you recommend?
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Offline Uilos

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Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2007, 04:26:50 AM »
It's very different and doesn't end the same way. I've kinda done the whirlwind reading course this summer as research (can you really call it that if you've enjoyed every minute of it?) for my novel. I've read all of the Dresden Files (SF-WN in two months...life?), NightWatch by Sergei Lukanyenko (mispelled), which is very good once you get past the russian cultural/writing differences. American Gods, also by Neil Gaiman, very graphic but very good. Also, I read the first four books in Stephen King's Dark Tower series.

Also, one of my personal favorites, is Hell on Earth by Michael Reaves, which is similar to Dresden

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It is by snark alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire 'tude, the lips acquire mouthiness, the glares become a warning. It is by snark alone I set my mind in motion.