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mechanics of faith in urban fantasy: a notion for a project
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
Something I am kicking around for a project that may be the next thing I do once the current WiP is done:
Lots of urban fantasies, including the Dresden Files, have faith as a power working such that, for example, a devout Christian can drive away the forces of darkness by wielding a cross which they have faith has power over said forces. And where magic requires the caster to believe in it in order to work.
I'm interested in a universe where the way that works is inverted. Where what matters to drive a vampire away with a cross is not what the person holding the cross believes, but what the vampire believes and how strongly. And where the efficacy of spells depends entirely on what the subject believes.
The consequences here are IMO interesting. For one thing, it would mean black magic works equally well on devout Christians as devout Satanists, and not at all on rationalists. It means that the more you know about magic, the more experience you have of using it and working with it, the more vulnerable you become to its effects. It means that rationalists will be immune to magic unless they see something happen that for which they can't find a rational explanation, in which case having to acknowledge that makes them more vulnerable. It means that it's essentially impossible to use magic against someone unless they know you are doing so. It also adds a whole new weight to the dynamic of not telling people about things for their own good.
Thoughts ?
Quantus:
Interesting. It will be a challenge to make the magic not be underpowered by the rampant disbelief in a modern setting, but I'd be curious to see how you go about it.
You may take a look at Mage: the Ascension rules (a Whitewolf World of Darkness RPG). From Wiki:
In the Mage setting, everyday reality is governed by commonsense rules derived from the collective beliefs of sleepers. This is called the consensus. Most Mages' paradigms differ substantially from the consensus. When a mage performs an act of magic that does not seriously violate this commonsense version of reality, in game terms this is called coincidental magic. Magic that deviates wildly from consensus is called vulgar magic. When it is performed ineptly, or is vulgar, and especially if it is vulgar and witnessed by sleepers, magic can cause Paradox, a phenomenon in which reality tries to resolve contradictions between the consensus and the Mage's efforts. Paradox is difficult to predict and almost always bad for the mage.
Its not the same thing as what youre talking about, but it may give you some inspiration for how the belief and disbelief will interact and/or reconcile.
comprex:
--- Quote from: neurovore on April 27, 2009, 02:40:33 PM ---
I'm interested in a universe where the way that works is inverted. Where what matters to drive a vampire away with a cross is not what the person holding the cross believes, but what the vampire believes and how strongly. And where the efficacy of spells depends entirely on what the subject believes.
--- End quote ---
You're brushing up real close to the framework of CS Friedmans' Coldfire Trilogy.
Granted, that was not an urban setting; she made it fairly obvious that the beliefs of the populace as a whole could barely sustain an urban setting let alone technology. Because we none of us have the completeness of knowledge required to affirm belief in the technology we use each day, and the most momentary lack of belief or faith cripples said tech.
One of the difficult bits comes in when you attempt to sort out what exactly is responding to the subject's belief. Here is a bit of recursion for you: Does the subject believe that an embodied actor is casting the magic, and, if so, will an embodied actor be created or an existing one be compelled to act?
Obviously, there is also vast potential for self-enchantment, of the sort I associate with CJ Cherryh's Rusalka, where they're all just walking around in the woods until they achieve a firm mindset that allows the achievement of a goal.
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: comprex on April 27, 2009, 03:58:56 PM ---You're brushing up real close to the framework of CS Friedmans' Coldfire Trilogy.
--- End quote ---
No, I don't think so, though that's my own fault for inclarity of presentation.
I'm not envisioning anything like the bits in the Coldfire books where Vryce's own nightmares come to life and he has to hack them up.
--- Quote ---Because we none of us have the completeness of knowledge required to affirm belief in the technology we use each day, and the most momentary lack of belief or faith cripples said tech.
--- End quote ---
Nor am I proposing the operation of technology being inherently faith-based. Though faith-affected is an interesting question without an obvious answer; it would seem to make sense that technology should be notably hard to effect with magic, and the more sophisticated, the harder to effect.
--- Quote ---One of the difficult bits comes in when you attempt to sort out what exactly is responding to the subject's belief. Here is a bit of recursion for you: Does the subject believe that an embodied actor is casting the magic, and, if so, will an embodied actor be created or an existing one be compelled to act?
--- End quote ---
I definitely did not specify things clearly enough then.
What I have in mind for the operation of magic is that there exist spells and spell-casters. And that the spells must be initiated by someone casting them. The subject's belief governs the efficacy of the magic rather than its existence, is I think the distinction for which I am looking; magic cannot be generated ex nihilo by the belief of a subject. The belief effect is reactive rather than proactive.
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: Quantus347 on April 27, 2009, 03:19:18 PM ---Interesting. It will be a challenge to make the magic not be underpowered by the rampant disbelief in a modern setting, but I'd be curious to see how you go about it.
--- End quote ---
"Underpowered" on what grounds ? I don't think all urban fantasies need to have so much magic present as, say, the Dresden Files in order to work; and it's not as if there aren't an awful lot of devout Christians in the world who would be vulnerable to magic working this way.
--- Quote ---You may take a look at Mage: the Ascension rules (a Whitewolf World of Darkness RPG).
--- End quote ---
I am familiar with the setting; it's not quite what I want to do, though you are right, it is related.
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